Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Revelation_Directors Cut: 7 Churches
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Ever wonder what the possible pitfalls of a church can be? A church is full of people, and people are sinful by nature. It might be easy for a church that isn't seeking after God, to steer off path. In chapters 2 & 3 of Revelation, Jesus gives us 7 letters to 7 churches that describe a variety of different situations a church can go through. Join Matt, Jonathan, and Stephen as they discuss the 7 letters from Jesus, and what they mean for the modern church.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillam, and we are excited to welcome you to week two of Revelation Director's Cut as we are continuing to move through the book of Revelation in this companion podcast series to what we are doing on the sermon stage at Austin Baptist Church on a weekly basis. So today with me is our pastor, John Pastor Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Howdy, Doctor. And then also today we have Stephen Vaughn, our director of media. Hey, Stephen. Hello. So last week we walked through chapter one, which, you know, it seems reasonable to spend one week on one chapter. But this week, Jonathan decided, hey, let's put the gas down a little bit. We we pushed through two chapters of Revelation and which will become a commonplace thing over the next several weeks. But part of the part of the reason for this is, you know, we can't spend six hours every Sunday talking over these things. But what we hope to do with this podcast is be able to fill out a little bit of some of the nuances that are missed, or not even missed, but not necessarily addressed from the sermon stage. And so, Jonathan, really quickly, before we go into this actual session, which uh listener, just so you know, what we're going to do today is walk through each of these seven churches and cities, try to pick up some of the context, some of the background that might not be apparent from just reading the text. Um, but Jonathan, why did you think whenever you were planning out the sermon series, I want to go ahead and do all of chapters two and three in one sermon rather than hitting seven different sermons or three or something like that.
SPEAKER_00Well, chapters two and three, I mean, thematically, they do go together as one, you know, in the sense of Jesus is speaking to his church, to the church, through these specific seven churches. And so thematically, I think it goes together. Uh, there's a lot of ways you could preach Revelation two and three. A lot of sermons will entire series will be based off those two chapters, which makes for a great sermon series. And uh perhaps I I'll do that one day. I've thought about doing that in years past. But for the purpose of this series, we're trying to dive on that topic of our hope is on the throne. And so the focus is on Christ, and that really is the focus of the whole series. And for Revelation two and three, really the point is that Christ reveals himself to those churches to uh exhort them, rebuke them, commend them, all those things we talked about. But my thought was you can get through the big idea of what is he saying to each of those churches, and by consequence, what is he saying to us? Uh, and by doing so, also I think I'm setting up hopefully a pace that that will accommodate the rest of the book. Because as you journey through the book of Revelation, you're gonna see there really are usually in about two chapter increments where things flow together. And so this was just kind of the first part of that.
SPEAKER_02Is there anything there for those who are trying to learn how to read the Bible more effectively and efficiently at home? Because I I think sometimes that might be a confusion for people of well, if there's enough content in here to run a six-week series, but then we can do it in one sermon. Should I spend six weeks reading through this or should I spend one day? I mean, like what what what uh how how can we help instruct and encourage those who are trying to read through this for themselves?
SPEAKER_00It depends the season you're in and what the purpose is of your study. Because sometimes, for instance, I've read the Bible chronologically in a year where you're plowing through a whole lot of Bible every day. I mean, you're reading a ton, uh, but then also in just my normal methodical process to the Bible, I'll try to read one to two chapters of the Bible every day. And I read it slower and more methodically and meditate and journal and do all that stuff. So it depends on your purpose, uh, especially if you truly are doing a Bible study, not a devotional, but a real study and you're trying to get into the depth of scripture. There's nothing wrong with, like you said, slowing down in those chapters in particular and take the time to get into the text, get into the context, uh, and really dig deeper. So it depends what your purpose and objective is, I guess is the short answer. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think that's helpful just because sometimes it can be a little intimidating coming up on scripture and trying to figure out how fast should I be reading this, how much should I be meditating over single verses. And I do like that you said that, that you know, some that that is an area where the truth is going to be the same no matter when you come to it, but there are different seasons in which we're supposed to read it, different frames in which we're supposed to read it. And so with that, let's go ahead and jump in and talking about the nature of frames in general. In these these two chapters, uh the the Apostle John takes the time to write to seven individual churches and seven individual cities in what is now modern day Turkey. Now, one question that we we had a uh uh a friend in the church who asked asked, Well, what was so special about these seven churches? I mean, especially as now none really none of these are part of a major city. Is uh Smyrna, which we'll talk about in a minute, is now modern-day Izmir. It has about three million people in it, and it's a pretty, pretty low, relatively large city. But you know, if this is the revelation of you know God's God's eternal word to these to uh mankind, why not to the church in Rome? Why not to the church in Alexandria? Why not to the church in Jerusalem? Why seven churches that honestly, six of whom don't really have any kind of impact in 2024?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think partly it starts with the familiarity of John. John knows that area. He was I made mention of it that he was a pastor of the Church of Ephesus. So he spent a lot of years in that region. He knew those churches. He also was close geographically to those churches when he wrote this. So Jesus, in his wisdom, he shows uh a picture of these seven churches to John and to speak to them. But those seven churches, if you look at the map, they go in clockwise form and they're all close in proximity to Ephesus. And there's even a roadway, yeah, a post-service, if you will, where those letters would be able to be transported efficiently. So uh it's really God's wisdom that he chose those churches. One, knowing John's background, but two, knowing the geography of how those letters would get there efficiently. But also that region of just Asia Minor, what we call Turkey today, it combines the two continents there of Asia and Europe. And it was a very strategic location of gospel expansion uh and influence for the church in those early days.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think there, I think there's a a deeper, a deep principle here that we need to be taken take uh note of, even in modern day church, that you know, there is an essence of which God calls us to reach our locality before he tells us to reach our nationality or internationality. Um, you know, in the case of this, you know, the I guess someone could say in John's time, you know, eight 80% of Rome aren't Christians, all right? So we're gonna be mad about that. But the reality is the note was written to Smyrna, it was written to Ephesus. Um one of the things that we as Christians have to watch out for, it's very easy to get sucked in by these statistics and get to be despairing about how the uh world's going to hell in a handbasket. And uh and you know, it one of one of my ongoing running gags is that sociologists wake up in the morning laughing because they can make a new poll every day of the week. But you know, what I see what I've seen the most often of ineffectiveness in Christians is when we fret so much about what's happening outside of our total sphere of influence to the degrad to the um uh ig ignoring of the lost person across the street. And so I think there's a great picture here where you know God's truth to these seven churches would actually go on to impact Rome, Alexandria, New York City, Philadelphia, Philadelphia, both City of Brotherly Love and the City of Brotherly Shove. I mean, we got we got both of them here. Um but but what we I think what we have to do is be careful that we don't lose, I guess the the forest for the tree, actually the opposite, lose the trees for the forest. Um, because we we tend to look at such a the bigger scale before we really deal with what is right in front of us. So we have this now. John is uh God is using John to reveal this truth to these churches that he knows, he loves, is this trusted elder for. And he starts with the one where that he was the most associated with, which was the church in Ephesus. Um so a little bit of background about this. Ephesus was the, I guess it was the largest city in Asia Minor and really the cat the Roman capital of that part of the world. So it was an imp it was an important place. There's a lot going on. Uh one of the things that I I find interesting about the city itself, it was one of the places that that hosted uh one of the ancient wonders of the world, the Temple of Artemis. So if you if you uh look into the book of Acts, whenever Paul's there, one of the one of the uh funny funny, it's not I guess it wouldn't it's funny to me now, not probably then, but uh when Paul's in the city, they get he gets on the wrong side of the business community, and so then they strike up a mob who then goes to the amphitheater and shouts uh praise to Artemis of the Ephesians for like three hours. I mean I can't it's like a soccer riot to the max. But that's the kind of city that this was of Ephesus, that it was wealthy, that it was powerful, that it was the it was where people, people, the important people were, right? And so uh, you know, Jonathan, for you, uh when we're talking about when you were classifying what the church of Ephesus is, that and the issue that that Christ was speaking to there, what was that particular arena uh corner that you were really focused that he was really focusing on for them?
SPEAKER_00Well, I landed on it as far as the lesson to learn from him is that that Jesus wants a loving church because for Ephesus, they had seemingly a lot of sophisticated church members, you know, that were intelligent, they had good doctrine, they had great pastors, they had Paul, they had Timothy, they had John, they understood the word, they also apparently had good works, they persevered through tribulation, says they called out evil, they understood what was right and what was wrong. So all those things were commendable, and you see a lot of that in in high capacity church members that are leaders, they're outspoken, all that stuff, that they stand for good. But the problem was that that they weren't standing with Christ. They weren't, they weren't spending time with him, they weren't loving him, and they really weren't loving people. Some people argue over that rebuke. Scholars will of what was the rebuke? Was it about their love for Christ or their love for man? And I would argue the answer is yes, you know, to both. I mean, because ultimately Jesus He boiled down uh all of the law into those two laws to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. And so they're lacking the one thing he commanded us to do, which was to commune and love the Lord, and then also to love each other. And so that's kind of what they became was just a cold Orthodox church that that had a lot of right thinking, but not much right uh right loving, I guess to go with that term.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it to me, what it kind of reflects are some of those environments that you'll see sometimes where um theology becomes the greatest uh note of the day in the church. And hear us listeners, theology is not a bad thing. I mean, it there's a lot of very good truth to be drawn out of, especially if you're if you're a seminarian and going to system systematic theology, there's a lot to learn there. But one thing, and I noted this when I did a systematic theology series up here. I believe that systematic theology was invented for Germans and engineers because it is this idea of so needling down this study to the nth degree. And that seems to be what's going on in Ephesus, that they have all this knowledge, they've been they've had the best pastors in that in the ancient world. They had experienced a lot of success and growth, but it seems like they are starting to that they are spending more time focused on as you said in the sermon, being right rather than rightly loving other people. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't get past past my notice that one of the places in the world when we talk about how theology gets off the rails, a lot of times we get to talking about um uh German liberal theologians, uh Frederick Schleiermacher and others like that. And you know, i when you look historically at it, Germany and especially in the time period in the early 1900s, I mean it they were incredibly intelligent. They spent a ton of time at uh analyzing and uh criticizing and dividing up the text and trying to learn what really does this say. But the problem was they had they had they detached what that core message of loving God and loving others from the pursuit of knowledge to where by the end of the day, when you look at the what the claim what German liberal theologians went to is that it was almost a nihilism. And really historically, you look at what the what was birthed out of that was Nazi Germany at the end of the day. And so I think this is a a what Ephesus is for us is a cautionary tale of it is good to know things about God, but don't just feed the brain if you're not gonna feed your heart to exactly right. Um, and you don't just challenge your brain if you're not gonna challenge your heart.
SPEAKER_00I think it's a cautionary word, especially for the Church of America, because in some ways, you know, the Church of America, we are Ephesus. We're a sophisticated nation. You know, we have high education, high capacity, high opportunities, we have uh trade, we have all those things and a great heritage of faith here in this nation. But if you look into a lot of uh conservative evangelical churches, when I say conservative, I mean theologically conservative evangelical churches, there are, I would argue, some uh temptations for leaders to become Ephesians in that they will start calling out all the wrongs in our country, and there's plenty of wrongs to call out, and it's not wrong to call them out. But if you call it out and it's coming from a place of just self-righteousness and arrogance and not coming from a place of love for Jesus Christ, well then your words are really meaningless. There's no power behind them. If there's no love, uh it's it makes me think of what Paul said that if you have all those talents and gifts in the world, he says, but you lack love, you're just a noisy gong, he says in 1 Corinthians 13. And that's what the Church of Ephesus became, and that can become what the modern-day church becomes if we don't level that out.
SPEAKER_02And one touchstone that you have to watch out for in your churches that can kind of start showing, okay, maybe we're getting into this territory is when you hear the pronoun them used a lot from uh sermon stage. Because you were making that statement, and you know, a lot of churches will call out the evils of the world. They very rarely call out the evils of those who are sitting in their own congregation. It's a lot easier to spew out angry criticisms to those who haven't darkened the door of your church in decades. And so, you know, for that, that that's one thing that I've noticed in those like as an easy test case for churches is that you know, if you're if your pastor tends to be getting or not even just your pastor, if your Bible study, if the people of your church, when you're talking about what you're seeing in scripture and it becomes talking about all about people who are never there and who may never come, then you might be doing this of falling into this you know mindless cycle of theology. One thing I also say here, too, and this might be a little bit more of a hot take, I guess, but you know, it seems to me that this is the kind of this is the main kind of environment where we can get into this argument between Calvinism and Arminianism and things like that. Because, you know, at the end of the day, there there are nuances of both of those doctrines that we just don't really understand. But we have but when we have the leisure enough to spend time fighting with each other about that rather than why are we not reaching pe why are we not reaching younger people in our churches or why am I not why am I not reaching my neighbor with it? I mean, it can it can become that you have to be able to find that good line between what is healthy discovery and knowledge and growth and looking into scripture and what is um, as uh Paul would say in the book of Colossians, uh, captive, deceitful philosophies.
SPEAKER_00And if the only way you're shining is academically and you're not shining missionally, then you're in trouble as a church. And and that's why I think even with the Ephesians, they have that harsh uh consequence that that Jesus uh he promises to them. He says, if you don't get your act together, if you don't remember, repent, and return, he says, I will put out your lamp. Uh and even that, you know, we didn't get into that in the pulpit yesterday, but what he's threatening is to shut it down. He's saying, I'll shut down your church if you if you go that route. And and so that's just a a really important warning for all of us.
SPEAKER_02And that's a really big question that that came that uh that I thought about whenever we were looking at this, because last week we talked about the fact of this existence in the spiritual realm of these things as well as in the physical. So what does it mean then if because the what what Jesus says is uh uh it it see, remember therefore from where you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place unless you repent.
SPEAKER_00What does that mean particularly? It means that church will no longer exist, that local church. I mean, to put it shortly. Some some people scholars will will argue over that means like an immediate now application versus a with his return, a uh consequence of of punishment that ultimately to an apostate church, for instance, that would come through uh through his coming when he judges the world. But I think most uh I think the biggest intention of that that warning is for the local church right then. And he's saying, if you will not get your act together, and if you don't make this about me, which is every church is supposed to be about Jesus, yeah. He says, if you make it about yourself and not about me, then I'll just shut it down. And and there are churches that die. I think that's just a helpful sobering reminder that we have to remember that Jesus' promise is to the church, to the global church, and to the mission of the church. But if a church stops operating as a church that he designed and they stop lifting up Jesus Christ and fulfilling his mission, Jesus shuts down churches. I believe that firmly. I mean, I've we've all watched it if we're being candid.
SPEAKER_02Well, what happens with salt when it ceases to be salty? It gets thrown out in the street for because it's good for nothing. Yeah. And I mean, you talk about even just the nature of what a lampstand is, when it stops shining that light, it's it's not it's not m m reaching its original purpose. It's not really good for anything. Right. And so whether the church doors are open or not, I do I do think that might that's an essence of what one of the things that's happening here is that if it when a lampstand gets taken away, it's the ability of the of them to sh the ability of them to shine light anymore because they they they're it's gone. And so you know, you have these zombie churches that kind of walk around that aren't shining light anymore, they're just kind of there. Um so anything before we move on to the next uh next church, anything else from Ephesus, Stephen or Jonathan? Okay. Well then we'll move on to one of the good ones, one of one of the the happy ones. I shouldn't say good. They're all there. They're all they're all there. They're gonna be great. Um this next one, though, is the church of Smyrna. And this uh this was located in modern day Izmir. Out of the seven churches, it is the only one that is that uh only city that's actually still there. All the rest of them are ruins or have small towns uh on top of them. Um But Smyrna, a couple of you know facts about it. Uh it was a beautiful harbor city, um, had a lot of temples, gardens, and libraries. Uh it was also the place where uh the the uh church father Polycarp was uh martyred. I was I shouldn't laugh about this, but I always laugh about Polycarp, whose names mean Minicarp, right? But no, Polycarp was actually one of John's disciples. And so you and when you have that story of him being martyred there in Smyrna, uh ultimately you had a very old a very old man who was discipled by a very old man. So by the time you get to when he was martyred, which would have been, I think, the late 200s A.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was about 150, I think. Something around there, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so I mean you have quite a long kind of a unique amount of per preserving of that original uh eyewitness testimony and with Jesus lasting all the way up until that point. So Jonathan, about Smyrna, like what what are some of the things about the their example that we should pay attention to?
SPEAKER_00I I think the the biggest line I saw in there was Jesus speaks to their poverty. He says, you know, I know your tribulation and your poverty, but he says, but you were rich. And I think that's just a an important point that they were physically they were poor. They were not prosperous like Ephesus. They didn't have the clout, the culture, the influence, all of that. And he says, Yeah, you're broke. And part of that was because of the tribulation they were facing, the oppression, and they were getting pushed out of the marketplace and different issues. He says, I know you're broke, but he says, but you're actually rich. And it uh takes me back to the words of Jesus on the Mount of Beatitudes when he says, Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. And and I feel like Jesus is giving that same blessing in a sense to Smyrna. He's saying, Yeah, it's hard on you right now, and everybody's against you and you're struggling. But he says, Be faithful. He says, Be faithful unto death, because you will not die that second death. He says, instead, you will have this crown that's going to be awaiting you. And so uh to me, that was I think just that that uh it's important for us to catch that that sometimes we think we're poor, but if you're in Christ, you're actually rich. And he's trying to remind Smyrna of that in a really dark place.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I I think it's important for us to recognize too, and and and and this helps, I think, when we hear that word persecution, that a lot of times in the New Testament, when we consider what persecution was, it wasn't always them releasing lions on people and chasing people through the streets with fit pitchforks and torches. A lot of times it really was that these people who were Christians would get blacklisted. Yep. And um what it wasn't that they're necessarily or their bodies were physically threatened, even though that did happen quite often. Um more more often they would be excluded from the economy. And not and and you know, the one of the big threats was how am I gonna feed my family? I mean, we're we kind of take for granted supermarkets and you know, minimum wage and things like that. And for for these folks, that was kind of that cutting edge of life is poverty was a very real thing, and it was already hard, but then add on to that, now the people that you usually trade with and deal with and that it helps you provide a living for your family, they're gonna they're starting to shut you out. Right. Um, and so I think that's a a word for Christian Americans that you know if you're getting shut out in the marketplace because of your belief system, that's not necessarily a bad thing, though it might be hard.
SPEAKER_00And well, can I also add it's not if because there are, I will say that there are Christians that get pushed out in the marketplace here in America because of their beliefs in a in an era where we have cancel culture left and right, it does exist. And and I think Smyrna, it should be a really encouraging letter for the Church of America because there are uh a lot of Christians out there that that is their biggest fear of persecution, right? Now it's not that our blood will be shed in a theater. We're not in that stage here in America. But could I not get that contract, that business contract, because of my beliefs? Yeah. Could I get pushed out of a job opportunity, even though they won't tell me, but it's because of my values? Yeah, you could. Uh, there's been people that have been fired because of their belief in Christ. And and they fear the advancement of their careers internally because they're judged and pushed out socially because of their faith in Christ. Those things are real.
SPEAKER_02And usually it's not because of just the belief in Christ. I would say that air quotes. Right. Uh, because you know, nominal Christians generally get away get along fine. Right. But really, it's in at living out legitimate faith where they say, Hey, you know what, I'm not going to participate in this. Uh, like, for instance, uh, if uh someone wants you to take a client to a strip club. Like this is a I mean, this is a very real thing that there's an expectation in the business world of in order to get contracts, you take rich you take the guys that you're trying to make money from to places of that are of ill repute. And you know, some people some people get fired when they say, I'm not going to do that because that violates my Christian principles of being faithful to my wife. And I mean that but that is even though that might seem kind of ridiculous, it is actually a very real thing that's happening in this world and continues to.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. Especially with with the sexual ideological shift that's happened in our country, especially in regards to gender and regards to all those things. I could go down the list of stories I've talked with of of men that struggle because in their workplace they're being forced to agree to things that that they don't believe in biblically. And there is a crisis that's happening internally of do I sign that? Do I agree with that? Right when that does not actually reflect their beliefs uh based in Christ Jesus and his word. So uh Smyrna, I think I think there's a lot of application for the church today. And uh, and the best part of that letter is that it's just encouragement. Jesus doesn't, I love it that Jesus doesn't say, Hey, I'm gonna make it all better for you tomorrow. His point is I'm gonna make it all better for you when I return. And just remember that this season is short, and he says, Be faithful even unto death, and it's the same charge for the church today.
SPEAKER_02Now, one the one thing that when we were looking up in the background here, um I had a question about staying power here, right? Because you know, that as we talked about, most of these churches didn't exist anymore. Ismir is still there. And I actually looked up, all right, are there any active churches still in that city? And actually, ironically, there is a church called the Church of St. Polycarp that's been there since the early 17th century that is still a an active church there. And so, Jonathan, do you see any kind of connection between the ability for Smyrna, the Smyrna church, to overcome persecution along with having longevity of uh fruitful ministry in that place, which if we're talking about today, modern Turkey is not a positive environment for Christianity at all. The fact that there is a church there is kind of frankly shocking. Right. So, I mean, what I mean, should is there any kind of connection that we should be able to make there?
SPEAKER_00Well, God has always historically blessed the church that stands for him, and and oftentimes even through martyrdom and through uh blood that's shed for his namesake, it's interesting as you study churches all around the world that the the gospel seems to grow like and spread like wildfire where persecution comes at the highest. And so uh, I haven't done a deep dive into that specific church there in Smyrna, but I would agree with you that there's a correlation there that ultimately if you stand for Christ, you don't stand alone. And God blesses that. And to have longevity there in the city, I I would agree there's an interesting connection point there. But the point is if if you're courageous for Christ and with Christ, He blesses those efforts of those churches. And and if you're not courageous and if you cave, then yeah, your witness is compromised and you won't be around, conversely. And so that's kind of the point is it takes courage to have longevity as a church uh over over many years.
SPEAKER_02All right. So with that, let's let's jump in then to the church in Pergamum, because it's has a actually kind of a similar thing to Smyrna in what they are facing, but a very different um uh instruction from Jesus. Uh a couple of things about Pergamum, it actually is kind of like the second city of Asia Minor. In fact, it had used to be the capital earlier on, and so it was a little bit past its peak, but um still had a massive library there, possibly bigger than the great library of Alexandria. Uh you also had um a pretty major altar to the Greek god Zeus here, which some scholars think is what they're referring to when they say the throne of Satan is among you. Um it could be that particularly that they're referring to. But also when Jesus is writing to him, he makes a statement that they he knows that they have been being pressed and that he they have been getting persecuted. In fact, that there was one of his faithful disciples who got killed there. Um so you would think, okay, well, we just won't walk through Smyrna. It was talking about you're about to face all this hard stuff. Um, you know, hang in there. Well, he kind of goes a different direction with it. And so, Jonathan, what what direction does Jesus go to the the people in Pergamum?
SPEAKER_00Well, he has to speak to them because they've started to compromise. And that that's really what what he points out. I think that's what's interesting when it gets to church number three with Pergamum, is they they had, like Smyrna, uh uh confidence to continue to persevere through persecution, but what they lacked was, I guess, the backbone of Ephesus, if you will. They weren't theologically uh pure. They they had brought compromise into the church. And he gives a couple uh pictures in there, the Nicolaitans who Ephesus apparently pushed out that false teaching sect, and Pergamum basically said, Come on in and just operate and teach, and they platformed them essentially. Uh, and then you also had he brought up Balaam as a uh metaphor of uh from the Old Testament of a compromised prophet that allowed sin to come into the body of Israel, and he's saying that likewise there's teachers that are bringing sin into the house of God. And so that was their issue, is they just stopped proclaiming the truth. They compromised in conviction in regards to God's word.
SPEAKER_02And there is something particularly scary here that I that I see in verse 17, or not 17, 16, where it says, Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon in war against them with the sword of my mouth. So Jesus is saying, if you don't fix this, you're about to go to war with me. And like I that doesn't sound like something good. I uh I don't know. But you know, it the what the the Pergamum reminds me of is I had a student one time who came from a uh a background of a mu Muslim ethnicity, and he was telling me one of the struggles that he had was like he's like, sometimes I feel like a Christian, sometimes I feel like a Muslim. And I'm like, buddy, you're that means you're neither. But we but you know, we we walk in this environment now, if we're talking about modern church stuff, I mean that's pretty common thought process of well, I'll just be whatever whatever is in vogue in the place and geography that I'm in. When I'm with my family and they go to church, I'll be a Christian. But when I go to the uh to the club, I I you know I'll just kind of leave that out. Or if I go to my college into the philosophy club, I become an atheist. And you know, that and then it's and I and I I will say this, honestly, I do feel bad for some folks who are coming from pagan backgrounds, or if they they come from you know Hindu Hinduistic or from uh from Islamic backgrounds, things like that, because there is this interweaving of your people and who you are and who your family is and these religions. Um and I think that's one of the big pressures that people face is well, you know, I I can get along in this world if I just have a basic belief in something, but then I just kind of mix it up with a whole bunch of other things, saying that maybe maybe I I believe a little bit of everything. Right. Um, but the problem is, and is Jesus Jesus uh uh says he's going to war against us because it is damaging. Because it because it's neither or nor, at that what they're they're actively doing is pushing people away from the gospel. Um I think we I think we think sometimes, well, you know, it's just kind of a balance, people will figure it out. When you allow teachers in your church, and when you when you allow these kinds of groups to to billow up in your church, the collateral damage is not just for them, it's for the people that they're gonna influence. The and when you talk about that church's reputation in the city, I mean, it's gonna be negative for the gospel in the city.
SPEAKER_00Well, and the it's what they what Jesus pointed out as far as a consequence of the Balaam teaching, of the Nicolaitan teaching, was to me it boiled down to two things of idolatry and immorality. Those are kind of the two things that that teaching brought in. And in the same way, when you allow compromise teaching to come into your church today, idolatry and immorality inevitably follow. And for a lot of churches that have brought in false teaching within it, there is idolatry to this day. And you might say, well, what does that look like? Because I don't see churches worshiping cows. There's a lot of churches where people worship themselves, first of all. There's that idolatry that comes in where some churches will make it all about you and your feelings, that you get to define God, you get to decide what is right and wrong, you follow your heart, you don't get challenged or rebuked. We're just going to tell you what you want to hear so that you'll keep coming.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But then the another side of it too, I'll put out there is idolatry of country. That even right here in our own nation, sometimes because there are there is false teaching that will come in there where all hope is placed in politicians and parties, that idolatry of nation is tempting within churches. And it happens, it's prevalent when you allow the wrong voices into a church. But then on the other side, immorality. It's interesting that that so much of it was rooted in sexual sin with the Nicolaitans, as well as uh when you get into the teaching of Balaam, it's the same thing. And to that same point today, there are churches that have rainbow flags outside. There are churches that that will endorse cohabitating and not not rebuke it. There are churches that will not speak to gender and really the differences in God's creative design. And all of that falls under the same thing. And that's why I look at a Pergamum and I'm thinking, America's got a lot of Pergamums out there where we've let the same two things come in through false teaching. We've allowed idolatry and immorality into the church, and no one does anything about it because, like Pergamum, they're strong on love and weak on truth.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I I think um, you know, one of the one of the questions that came in my mind when when I was reading this is, you know, who are who are these Nicolaitins, right? Because they're mentioned multiple times in these letters. You know, I I actually did doing some research on it, many scholars connect it to one of the original seven deacons. I know, and that's sad. I know. Like so, and in fact, these some very early church fathers will say that the the deacon Nicolaeus, who was from Antioch, uh, was the one that uh built up this teaching, or at least the teaching was claimed to come from him. And I think there's a very real warning there to us now that just because you might start on the right path doesn't mean you're gonna finish on it. And um just because somebody has a predigree of being a believer, if they're not teaching scripture, then their their teaching is worthless. And um you know that this can I think I can see this happen, especially when you see people who are influenced by Christians, you say, Well, my thinking has changed on it, right? That's one like what one of the big things you see that with is the uh gender things and uh uh homosexual marriage, things like that, where you have these people who are very influential Christian writers, thinkers, preachers, and they say, Well, no, I have now I have somebody close to me that but does this, so maybe my thinking is changing on that. Right. Well, just because they came from a place that they had a lot of great truth and a lot of great teaching doesn't mean it's gonna stay that way. And so I mean that's a that's a call for constant vigilance on who you're following. Is that are they still preaching the gospel or are they are they changing are they changing their minds about that?
SPEAKER_00One thing I found that was interesting in study in one commentary, they pointed out that Nicholas, the the the deacon you mentioned earlier, that his name is the Greek equivalent of Balaam, which I didn't know that until I studied it. But the Hebrew for Balaam means destroyer of the people. And Nicholas, when you get into the Greek, it means conqueror of the people. Yeah, like victory, yeah. Exactly. So so what's interesting is the picture Jesus is also trying to give is if you allow the wrong teachers in your church, they will crush and destroy your people spiritually. Uh and that's what's just so sad is that when you allow that in and it's unchecked, usually it's because of love, because we're letting these other perspectives in. But really, you want God's perspective in your church. You don't want other perspectives, you want God's perspective, and when you compromise on that, the people are always the ones that get destroyed.
SPEAKER_01And it even brings me to Romans 12, 2, uh, where it says, do not be conformed to the world, and kind of the idea of you don't really want influences even outside of the church to break in and push us the wrong direction. And um, I think of kind of this self-help, self-motivating narcissism that's uh all over the country. It's all it's all over the world that is the driving force of a lot of the things that we see going on in culture today. Um and it tends to spill into the church as well. Right.
SPEAKER_02Well, and then that brings us to this next church in Thyatira. Um, because you know, when we read that one, it appears really similar to what we saw in Pergamon. So it's dealing with the idea of presence of false teachers in it, but really in specific, actually, one of the big differences is that it's not talking about a whole bunch of them, it's talking about one in particular. And so what's this reference here to Jezebel about, Jonathan?
SPEAKER_00So Jezebel, I pointed that out earlier, uh, excuse me, in the sermon on Sunday, that Jezebel is obviously a figure from the Old Testament, not a positive figure, if you're unaware. She was the queen of Israel, married to Ahab, the most wicked king ever, and she was the worst. Uh, biblically, she was the worst. And she she she was trying to kill all of God's prophets. She introduced worship to Baal, uh, all kinds of sin and sexual sin and immorality and just awful things. And so what's interesting though is when Jesus writes to the church of Thyatira, he says, You have a teacher named Jezebel. Um, now I would read that to suspect that there really was a teacher there, somebody, a prophetess that was getting influence. Perhaps her name was not Jezebel, but what Jesus is connecting the dots to is to an old testament imagery, just like he did with Balaam. He's saying, There's another Jezebel that's with you. And she's starting to gain a lot of influence and traction with your people. And that's why uh the word I gave on Sunday with Thyatira, I kind of distinguished the two. I said that with Thyatira, Jesus is saying he wants a discerning church. Uh, versus with Pergamum, I felt like he was saying he wants a truth-proclaiming church because Pergamum platformed essentially the Nicolaitans and some of this other teaching and gave them power and influence. But there with Thyatira, Jesus is rebuking the people, saying, Why are you listening to that Jezebel? Like, why are you listening to some lady? And to me, it was seemed that seemed to be, I guess, the nuance between the two was he was more so it sounded like rebuking the church to stop listening to the wrong voices. It wasn't about necessarily coming behind them doctrinally, it was just don't even listen to them and let them have a voice in your life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I see one of the big differences too here between uh because like Thyatyras actually starts off pretty positive, saying, Hey, you're doing great. I like it, you get you're on a really good track here. Yet, and you don't ever you don't ever want a but or a yet coming from Jesus. But I mean, I think you see a real difference here between corporate, um, the whole of the whole culture of the church going in a direction of sin versus the permitting of one person in there. And so what what you know uh if you're looking at this on the whole, it's like, well, I mean, thyatyras, I mean, they're mostly pretty good. I mean, there's only one bad guy in the whole, or one bad lady in the whole business. Like what why why would in this and to be fair, or not to be fair, but to be knowledgeable about this, this that's the longest letter of the scene. So why why does Jesus take the most amount of time for the fewest amount of people in in Thyatira?
SPEAKER_00It's because a little leaven will ruin the whole lump. And that and that's the idea, is that there is a voice of influence that's in there, and ultimately sin spreads. And and and that's why I think Jesus is trying to nip that in the bud there. He's speaking towards uh this Jezebel figure that is leading some to start questioning God's authority and his word on these issues, and he's telling them to knock it off that that that voice can have a lot of power, and it's a reminder to us that individual voices in our lives can have a whole lot of power, um, a whole lot of influence. And that's why Jesus cares enough to actually speak to that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and how much and also how much do you are you willing to tolerate in your church as far as somebody that you're giving leadership and giving ability? Uh one thing that I think sometimes churches struggle with is you will have these kind of individuals like this who are allowed to keep their position because they're wealthy, yeah, and because the church is afraid to lose that tithe. And then they so then they go beyond that to even allowing sin, a specific sin, to exist in that person's life, but they get a pass because they're because they're rich. Um James is pretty clear on that one. That doesn't go well. It's not not a good thing. But ultimately, I think that that's something that churches now that does not mean that churches need to start going and trying to find do a witch hunt type thing to find everybody in the church who has any kind of problems because that's going to be a problem in itself because all of us are sinners. But what this is speaking to, I think, is this idea of empowering somebody who is beginning. I think one of those big differences between Thyatira and Smyrna, Thyatira is beginning the cycle versus Smyrna is already well down the city. And and you know that Smyrna was the same way. It started off with a couple of uh bad apples that became Rod the whole bunch, and Thyatira's on the way. And you know, one of the things I find interesting about Thyatira itself is that when we look in the book of Acts, there actually that's where Lydia is from. And so, I mean, there the in the midst of this, there's still there are still good people. Now, in that case, Lydia wasn't a Christian when she left Thyatira, but maybe she was when she came back. Um so then uh let's move on to the church in Sardis. I believe they're there the next one. All right, so Sardis is the zombie church. The I think I wrote in my notes the sneaky zombie church, right? So uh let me ask the the question that kind of came to mind with this one for me. I mean, number one, Sardis was a major agricultural commercial hub, a lot of traders going through there, uh a lot, a lot of you know transit. But um, so it looks to me like the church in Sardis is just really tired. They're just worn out. But Jesus is not very kind to them. I mean, it is he is he's pretty pretty blunt. So, Jonathan, what's happening here that we need to be aware of with uh uh with Sardis and what and why Jesus is being so stringent against this church in particular?
SPEAKER_00Well, I don't think it's because they're tired, it's because they're dead. You know, he didn't say you're tired, you need a nap and a sabbatical. He said, he said, you're dead. He said you're not doing anything any good. And worse than that, they're trying to pretend they're doing good. And that that I think is the worst part that can come in churches. Sometimes churches will project that they are just this impactful church that's moving mountains for God. And then Jesus, I think, sometimes looking at him like, I actually know what's happening in there. And and you're pr putting up a front saying that you have this reputation of being alive, but internally you're dead, you're not living on mission, you're not doing the things that I've called you to do. And it's just a helpful reminder that sometimes reputations are not always true. Uh, and especially in as we look at churches in the 21st century, there are churches that sometimes you might say, Well, I heard that's a great church. Well, maybe it's because what you heard was 50 years ago. You know, there might have been some good. And I think that was kind of the case here with Sardis, is that there was good, undoubtedly. I'm sure there was good. Well, but today Jesus says you're dead. Nothing's happening.
SPEAKER_02What kind of collateral danger is there in a situation when you're dealing with a dead church? I mean, is there I mean, Jesus seems like he only really ever reacts really negatively against those that are posing an active danger to others? So if that's the case, then how how is it that Sardis is an active danger to those around them, if they're dead? I mean, like, isn't it kind of a thing of, well, they're just there, they're just doing their thing and all that.
SPEAKER_00The danger is it is it stains the bride of Christ to everyone else. At the end of the day, it's it's putting up a front because Jesus, his gospel's life-changing. It's living water, it's supposed to change us and and bring a vibrant new life. You know, everything's about life with Christ and not about death, it's about life. And so that's what the gospel is supposed to bring in and through his church. And when a church is pretending to be alive, but really they're dead on the inside, they become those whitewashed tombs that Jesus rebukes in the Pharisees uh in his gospel. And so I think the danger is it leaves an impact on people because people go to church looking for life. I mean, if you truly are a lost person, a quote seeker, you're going into a church looking for life, and when what you see is just death, uh it it really hurts the witness of the Lord Jesus Christ. That's why he gets upset about it.
SPEAKER_01So I have a question for both of you. Do you think that happens with church pretending more often they just don't realize that it's happening? Or is it more often they're just trying to hide it?
SPEAKER_02Uh I think it's probably both. I mean, like it's for for some people in the church, there there can be a hard thing of really being in a place so long that you get blinders on to what's happening outside of it. But I guess it's kind of like that um the legal doctrine, ignorance is not uh does not excuse violation of the statute, right? Like just because you might a person might have gotten used to an environment and used to uh I remember there was a church that I that I heard about that called themselves the dot dot dot church. And my response to them was you are not well, you might have been the dot dot dot, but now your youth ministry is so small you can't afford to do youth camp anymore. Like you need to be realistic about where you really are. And there is a a pride that can go into that of not wanting to wake up and try really evaluate where you are spiritually in the world.
SPEAKER_00And so I think it's a little bit of both and I think, yeah, I don't know if it's so much about lying as it is, it's about denial. I I think it's denial. Like none of us want to acknowledge our weaknesses. None of us want to say we don't have it anymore. I think a lot of churches are like uh Uncle Rico and Napoleon, you know, trying to say I still got it. And if the coach just put me in and oh, back in the day I could do this and that. Dude, hit those three-quarters of a mile. Well, it's like it's like thinking about, it's like thinking about like a middle-aged father, like, oh, back in the day I bench pressed 300 pounds. It's like, yeah, but you can't lift up the bar today, brother. Like, let's just talk about that. And and so I think some churches get in the same way, especially I think this word that God gives to the Church of Sardis is applicable for a lot of legacy churches that are in America. It's a good warning to them that sometimes we're in denial because God moved in profound ways in years past. And there was so much good, and there's all these memories of him doing incredible things that then we just we don't want to acknowledge that, well, those things aren't happening anymore. And in fact, right now, some really bad things are happening, and people will turn a blind eye to that, I think, because they want to deny the reality of the present situation by living in the past.
SPEAKER_02And really, I think it's sad. I mean, more so than anything else, because the most of the time these people are remembering legitimately good things and they agreed and they remember these revivals and they remember all these people coming to Christ. But it is, but you know, there is that that nature of fatigue that sets in where it's like you I think you spiritually just you get to a place where you don't want to be challenged anymore and you don't really want to grow anymore, and and that's not good.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I also I would argue it leads to insanity in churches because if you live in the past and off all the winds of, I agree, ways God moved in former decades or centuries. Well, then the presumption is, well, then God's going to move the exact same way if I keep doing the exact same stuff that we did in that context and time, you know, a hundred years ago. And it's amazing how methods do change over the years. And churches that get stuck and they say, Well, because God blessed that a hundred years ago, that means I have to do the exact same thing the same way today. They're in denial. They're becoming in some way Sardis, where they're pretending to be alive, but they're using uh those old wineskins, if you will, and it's not gonna work for them. Um, so anyway, it's it's there's a lot of application to us. It's hard. It's hard when you've seen God move in the past to press forward to see to seek him to see move uh to see him move again in the future.
SPEAKER_02All right. So uh uh keeping moving here because we've got two more churches to hit, and we know this is a long, a uh long episode, but you know what? There's a lot of great content.
SPEAKER_00If you're still listening, you really care. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, they like my voice, Jonathan. Clearly, you have the radio. My dulcet tones. All right, so on this one, we're gonna be talking about Philadelphia. That's right, the the PA. We're talking about the eagle the Eagles and all actually, I think I feel like that's the opposite of what this church in of called Philadelphia, the city of Brotherly Love in Turkey is. Um, really, we don't know much about the actual city. I mean, other than that it was in a really earthquake-prone region. Yeah, um, it does it certainly doesn't exist anymore. There is a town on top of it called Alasahir, but um it's not there. Now, as far as the description that Jesus gives, I mean, it's very positive for them. So, I mean, what what kind of uh, you know, what what kind of characterization are we looking at here in Philadelphia?
SPEAKER_00Well, he's encouraging them. So it's one of the two that have no rebuke. So uh Philadelphia and Smyrna, they're the two that just have good news, commendation, no, no rebuke. And the big thing he does is he's encouraging them because once again, they're suffering, they're undergoing tribulation and persecution, and they're not the most influential church, and that has little influence, but he's saying you can still do a good work. Like he's applauding their faithfulness, which to me, the verse that stood out to me really was verse eight, because he said, I know your works, behold, I've set before you an open door, which no one's able to shut, and I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and you have not denied my name. And what you see through that word is that Philadelphia is being faithful. They're being faithful. He says, You aren't the most powerful, you're not Ephesus, you don't have all the world changers there. Yeah, but by golly, you're listening to me and you're doing what I told you to do. And because of that, he says, I have opened up a door for you. And I think that's the encouraging part is that their faithfulness is given a reward of God's favor. And God's saying, even though it's hard, even though you feel like you might be the little man in town, I've got a door open for you and the enemy cannot shut it, that you're still gonna make an impact. And so I think that's just a good word of encouragement to all of us as churches that sometimes you might feel like, I wish I was doing more. I wish I just saw these big, huge things happening. And God's saying, well, just stay faithful. And if you stay faithful, I'm gonna open up a door and the enemy won't be able to shut it for you, and you will make an impact.
SPEAKER_02And I do think there's a lot of insecurity out there, and and I say I say this in a way that you know, there are the we even talk about in the Southern Baptist Convention that mo the average church is about a hundred people. And there there can be this feeling of you know, I'm just in a small church, our town has 1,500 people in it. And I mean, how really how are we gonna if we're gonna have the same people all the time? And so I mean, it's uh this is an encouragement to that, that you know, numerical growth in environments that don't support that is not necessarily the best, the most important thing. Um, you know, it but you do I mean what it does call for is for you to be mindful of your context. I mean, even in the con the context of Philadelphia, it appears that there is a Jewish synagogue there that is causing them a lot of problems. And so in that in that, I mean, they're kind of a backwater town, they've got real problems with the Jewish synagogue that live there, and but ultimately what Jesus is saying is hold fast, guys, like that by having staying power in an environment that's against you, that's going to bring uh glory to God through that. I mean, and so the call for Philadelphia is a little bit different than what the call is for Ephesus or for Thyatire or Sardis. Right now, one question that comes to mind to me, specifically between Philadelphia and Smyrna, uh, how does it make sense that some churches would face persecution while others wouldn't? So in this case, in the the case of Smyrna, Jesus says it's coming and you're gonna get hit. And in Philadelphia, it says, uh, I will keep from you from the hour of trial that's coming on the whole world that try those who dwell on the earth. Uh so it it feels like in this for Philadelphia is saying, I'm gonna hold out for you. You're you're not gonna have to face as bad a stuff as Smyrna. So I know there are some you know end times rapture uh theology things that can be addressed there. We'll hold that off until another later episode. But there is that question of fairness, right? Like, you know, how is it fair that some churches will face persecution? And even in our modern world, why is it fair that some church the Chinese church is going to face intense persecution to the destruction of their homes and businesses, while American churches probably won't in our lifetime? Like, where where how does that all equate out?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'll answer the first part, I guess, before we get to the kind of the local versus global context. I I I'm quoting it from memory, but I believe it's in 2 Timothy 3 12 that Paul says that anyone who desires to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. That there's a promise in scripture that none of us like, but it's there. And so I think going to your original question of Smyrna and Philadelphia, why are they enduring so much hardship? They also have the commonality that they're faithful. Like they're both, they are both desiring to live a godly life in Christ Jesus, and consequently, they're being persecuted. So I think you have to start off by that by saying, you know, if you get serious about Jesus and you really live for his glory, you have to expect it. Like this is what you sign up for. When Jesus says you have to deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow him, suffering is a part of our followership. And if we aren't ready for that, then that's on us because God's word's very clear that that does come, that we need to expect it. So I think to answer your original question, why are they suffering? It's because I think they're living for the glory of Christ. Um, but to go to your second question of why is it in some places and not in others? Because you could argue even right now, I hope people would say that Austin Baptist Church, and we are myself, you, our staff, that we're living for the glory of Christ. I hope people would say that. We're trying, I believe so. But are we right now uh scared that we're gonna get killed for making this episode? No. But would people be if they tried this on another side of the globe? Absolutely, that are living for the glory of Jesus Christ. And I think it's about one out of seven uh Christians around the world are facing some form of persecution today. Yeah, and we're not one of them in the big scheme. And so the why on that part, that really the answer lies in the sovereignty of God and it's his plan for people. Um, and so I can't answer that. I can say that different regions and geographies, uh, areas, it's kind of ebbed and flowed over the years where some areas might be intensely persecuted persecuted for a while, then not, and then they may be, then they may not. So, in other words, who's to say one day we won't be? Because that also is a possibility. There is no uh no promise in the Bible that says here in the United States of America, we will not ever have any form of harsh persecution.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think one thing that I kind of cling to in this is that no matter what your context is, the call is still the same thing, right? That be faithful to me, right? Hold fast no matter what it is you face, because you know, we I think we kind of get we kind of get it backwards where it's okay, if we hold fast and if we're faithful, then we won't face persecution. And because somehow that's going to flip a switch and say God's gonna give you riches and prosperity and all this stuff because you're faithful, we're gonna do a thing and it's gonna make a thing happen. But that's not Christian faith. Christian faith is lived in a sinful world, and as a result, our world is erratic and hypocritical and broken. And so as a result of that, the we don't have control over the brokenness of the world ultimately. We cannot make the world not broken, and we cannot we can't eliminate the sinful choices of other people. What we can do is preach Christ and Him crucified and to believe that in our own hearts and to live that out. And so that so the really uh the the way that I said is this is this is uh faithfulness is both simpler and harder than we would think because it is this choice to follow Jesus, but that's not always the easiest thing. And so I think for that, you know, there there is a statement here of yeah, life's not fair, but but Christ, but and you know, realistically, Christ is good in the midst of that. Right. Um, and so then that takes us to our last church here, um, which is the church in Laodicea. Um, the church of throw-up. First Baptist throw up. So why why that why did I just uh reference vomit here, Jonathan, when we're talking about Laodicea?
SPEAKER_00Well, Jesus speaks about how he he's can he wants to spit out this church from his mouth, which is really a terrible, you know, picture when you think about it. But yes, to point to your word of of vomit, that is what he's referencing there. That is what he's actually saying, and it's and it connects to historically what was going on there with the water systems there in Laodicea. I referenced that in the sermon, but how they had all this prosperity, all these riches, great trade, but they did not have a proper source of water. So they used aqueducts to bring water into the city, but that that water would become compromised really through that travel, and it wasn't cold, it wasn't hot, it was lukewarm, but it also would make people sick. Uh, and there's actually historical uh citations of that of people that would write how uh guests that would come into Laodicea, they would get sick when they would drink the water.
SPEAKER_02And let's think Lubbock water here. That's I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00If we have a Lubbock listener, we'll just gross. But Jesus he takes a picture that they understood in their local context that yeah, our water is disgusting and it makes us sick. And Jesus says, Well, that's how I feel about y'all right now. That you aren't hot, you aren't cold, and when I and when I drink you, it just makes me want to vomit. And and that is it quite the word picture that Jesus is using to describe that church.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I loved that the verse that you used to describe Laodicea is that God wants a desperate church. Right. Laodicea, for all intents and purposes, didn't have need of anything. Like you said, they had the the healing waters, they had these medical salves, like they were they were doing well, right? I mean, if you're looking at I think if someone were looking at this these seven churches and were ranking them based on comfort level and you know prosperity, Laodicea would probably be at the top of that list. They'd be Laodicea and Ephesus pretty close there. And then ironically, the ones that probably had the worst environment would be Smyrna and Philadelphia. It's like, oh, you live in an earthquake zone. That's great. Right. Have fun with that. But I mean, but in that, uh Laodicea is the one that gets the biggest um I don't know, lashing from Jesus. I mean, it it he is brutal in that. And that and that is the thing about the the whole vomit statement. He he he's not it's not just rejection, it's disgust. Right. Right. And for Jesus to be disgusted with the behavior of his church, it makes that statement that this is a lukewarm church. They won't they won't pick a side that they are they're believers while it's comfortable, but then may then their own personal lives they're not they're not following it. Right. And uh I mean I think I think why we're so often drawn to this one in particular, part is just because it has such a clear picture of this of gross, of disgustingness. Um but it it's um I I think that that we were drawn to that for that reason, but also because we do we do tend to um associate with this. But this idea, I mean you if you were a uh church kid in the 90s, it was the the song, I don't wanna be I don't wanna be a casual Christian. I don't wanna live a lukewarm life. That one was for free, guys. Y'all my record's gonna drop later this week. But there was that there was this big re there's a big reaction against people who are lukewarm in anything in their life. Because generally it's like, oh man, just just pick a side. Stop stop being not because there there is a lack of id not just a lack of identity, but a lack of character in people who won't do that. And um and so in that w one of the interesting verses in there too is verse uh 19 of chapter three, where Jesus says, Those whom I love I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Yeah. So I think while we're looking at and saying Jesus is being kind of harsh here, he's very clear. If I didn't care about you, I wouldn't say anything. Right. If I if I didn't care about you, you would not even be referenced. I think there's a there's a a uh glimmer of hope in there for all these churches and for any church that you know he's there, he's knocking, he's given you what you need to be able to be faithful and to stand fast. And it might hurt, right, and it probably it probably will hurt, but it will if it grows us up into maturity in Christ and into looking like him, then ultimately that's gonna be the best path for us and the only real path forward for our lampstand to continue to shine.
SPEAKER_00Well, and he's shepherding his church is what he's doing, because good shepherds, they don't let their flock just go off into harmful places without calling them and correcting them and rerouting them to the greener pastures. And and that's what Jesus is doing as the good shepherd, really in all these letters, but it's kind of this is like you said, kind of the crescendo of it of the Laodicea, where he's saying, I'm saying this stuff not because I hate you, it's because I love you. Uh, and and really the same thing is we've gone through these letters. I know for us individually as well as collectively, for whatever local church you're in, there's gonna be some things that resonate with you in your own life and in the maybe in the life of your church. And Jesus isn't saying those things just to make you feel down and out. He's saying, I'm saying this because I want to help you get back on track. Yeah. But I love you enough not to let you keep doing these things and ruining your life and ruining your church. Uh, and and really it's a great picture of his kindness. I think it's in Hebrews 12 where the author Hebrew says the same thing that the Lord disciplines the one whom he loves. And so he loves Laodicea. The problem is that they they just had sold out, they sold out for lesser things and they compartmentalized the church and Jesus into this just kind of little small sideshow in their robust, fancy, wonderful life where they had all these lavish things. And Jesus says, You should start buying for me instead. He says, You've bought everything and you're still miserable, you're pitiable, he says. He says you're poor, blind, and wretched. And he says, instead, you should be buying gold for me, which is faith. He's saying, You need to place your faith in me. You need to buy, he says, white garments because those garments you bought are not going to clothe you with righteousness. He says you need that. And he says, that salve that you mentioned earlier that you're using to treat yourself medically, it won't open up your eyes to actually see spiritually. It won't give you new life. And so that's the point is Jesus offers everyone, the rich and the poor, new life that you cannot find here on this earth. But the hard part is for the rich, sometimes it's a struggle for us to hear that. That's what he says.
SPEAKER_02And that kind of brings me to our last, the last question that I have for this episode of the podcast. So Jesus is talking in each of these to the corporate churches here, like this gathering of believers. And I I you know, I have to believe, and I don't know that this this may or may not be true, but I I can't it would be hard for me to believe that there's nobody in any of these congregations like the ones that are just all the way bad, that everybody in Laodicea was lukewarm, or that everybody in Thyatira was following Jezebel and all that. So what what's the word then that if there are those that are that remnant, the ones who held on to Christ even in the midst of a church that's going off off the tracks off the rails, what what is the encouragement that we have for people who find themselves in that kind of a situation?
SPEAKER_00I would start by saying I'd encourage you to be faithful individually. The only thing you can control is yourself. You can't control your church, you can't control people. That we none of us have that capacity. We can control ourselves, and that's what we're held accountable for above all, is what we do individually. So live faithfully would be the number one encouragement I would have for you is you do the things that God has called you to do, set the example and live for his glory. Then the second part of what do you do about your church if your church is a mess? It depends. Uh depends on how is it a mess. And and it also depends on where is your church. Like there are some people, we were talking about this, there's some people in rural parts of the country, there aren't many options out there. You know, there might be one church, two churches that that that's that's the only option out there. And maybe God's calling you then to be a catalyst of change and you that you have no choice. It's there. But for others, I will argue, if you say you're in Austin, Texas, or another metropolitan city, where there's tons of options out there. Yeah, God sometimes does call us away from churches. And and I would argue, especially if you get into a world where there is doctrine, if you're in a Pergamum Thyatira type church and one of those issues where there is doctrinal infidelity, there are things that are wrong, then run. Run. Don't be a catalyst of change, run and go find a church that will lift up the word of God because you do not want to be in a truth compromising church, because those shepherds in that church will not edify you and build you up the way that God has intended for a local church to do. Yeah, you're already in a bad environment there.
SPEAKER_02You are, and then on the other on the on not the flip side, but on another another facet of that, if you find yourself in a church that's lukewarm and things like that, um, maybe the calling is to actually be the one that starts stepping up and leading. I I know um one of the temptations we can get into sometimes, which is funny because we we say this often that non-believers don't want to go to church because they don't like the Christians in there and all that. Well, how many how many Christians don't go to church because they don't like the other Christians in there either? And they they I think we we have number one, I think it is important for us to to have some level of grace for those around us. We also have to have love to be able to call out, hey, what the what this thing is that you're practicing is sin. Right. And then to be able to lead in that faithfulness, because that's what churches need is they need men and women who are prepared to step forward and say, I'm I you know, I love you and I love Christ, and I want to lead in this congregation, and I want to lead us toward what his calling is for us. Um there will be situations where it says, you know, you gotta step out because you're because it is a losing battle, because it because sometimes the church is too far gone and they've bought too into too much into um idolatry of whatever sort. Yeah. But some churches haven't yet. Sometimes sometimes the call that Jesus is making to him is you you have this reputation of being alive, but you're dead. And Jesus doesn't say, well, just go back in the ground. It says wake up. It's like what role can you have in making that difference so that the lampstand of your the church that you love, the people that because like let's not forget that you know the church is not a building that's the the group of people that's there. What kind of love are you showing to them and leadership that can glorify God through that congregation?
SPEAKER_00And revival oftentimes starts from the bottom, not from the top, right? And and lots of times we look to pastors, guys like me, oh, go spark a revival. Well, I don't really have that capacity. We're not the Holy Spirit. Yeah, exactly. I can preach the word and I can try to inspire, but revival, if you study it historically, usually it starts from the bottom. It's from God's people that are stirred, as you said, in their hearts to not be lukewarm, but to be on fire for Jesus Christ and things change.
SPEAKER_02And they're also not usually people who are of much, you know, uh reputation, right? Like you think about the Welsh revival of 1900s, it was a teenage girl. You look at the passion movement here that's happened in the US in the tur 2000s, it's a it was a group of college students. I mean, uh again, don't look at when we look at ourselves, we can look at ourselves like the I believe it's the Smyrnans that don't have much, but got but the reality is when you have God and when you have Christ on your side, there there is no limit. And so lean into that, be desperate for him. Be the kind of people that you know as Christ is knocking at the door and opening this ability for people to change your world, be that. I mean, it the door is is open. You just got we just got to walk through it. Um so with that, I mean, that's gonna kind of close us out. I know we've gone a little over an hour here, but hey, thanks for thanks for hanging out with us today. We hope that this uh conversation, this session has been helpful for you considering what context you're in. Um I won't apologize if you were expecting us to start naming churches that equalize each of these. And so if in your mind you're doing that, you might be careful for one thing, uh, but also let's start start with yourself. Like start like question in your own heart. Okay, if I were going, if if I were one of one of if my heart represented one of these churches that I'm seeing here, which which one would it be? Yeah. And then what does Jesus prescribe for me to follow after him in that? I mean, I think about in the uh whenever Jesus called his first disciples, the call wasn't, okay, go to go to seminary, go do all these things. It says, no, follow me. Let's go. Don't don't put it off. Just come on. So um, guys, anything else before we we close down for the day?
SPEAKER_00No, the letters end with hope. So I think what I think your words are right. I think the imagery of Jesus knocking on the door, it still applies today. He's still standing there, he still knocks on the door of each of our hearts. And hopefully, if you've read these letters, he knocked on something. I would argue, like you said, there's something in our hearts that we probably could take away from one of these churches that we need a little bit of correction on as well. And hopefully you receive that and open up that door and take that step into new life, whatever that may be.
SPEAKER_02All right. Well, Stephen, anything else for the bunch? Okay. Well, with that, we're gonna be we're gonna shut down for today. We hope that you'll join us next week as we hit the next section, which will be uh Jonathan, that's sections uh chapters four and five. Correct, the throne room. Yep, so we're jump, we're jumping in it. And we're glad that you're on this journey with us. And as you have personal questions about things that we're seeing in Revelation, feel free to reach out through direct messages direct messaging through our Instagram account at Austin Baptist Church. But till next time, thank you for joining us, and we'll see you on the Citizen ATX podcast.