Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Revelation_Directors Cut: Sound the Trumpets
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If you are like me, you may have imagined the blowing of the trumpets in Revelation to sound like the beginning of "Sweet Victory" from SpongeBob...or perhaps you imagine the trumpet fanfare from Princess Bride. Either way, while we don't know what song the trumpets will play, we do get a glimpse at the type of wrath that God will bring at the sounding of each trumpet. Join Matt, Jonathan, and Stephen as they take a closer look at Revelation chapters 8 & 9.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillum, and we are glad you are joining us as we continue this series called Revelation Director's Cut. Every week we have been bringing alongside our podcast with a sermon series here at Austin Baptist Church as we've taken on the task of walking exegetically through the entire book of Revelation in our church services. And so we're glad that you're joining us today as we are dealing with chapters eight and nine. And today with me, I have Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Howdy, Matthew. And then also with me have Stephen Vaughn. Hello, Stephen. Hello. And so this week, as we jump right in into uh chapter eight, you see something of a progression here. And um, you know, I made I made a mistake last time. I thought I thought of a really good title after the fact that we should have called this episode, or maybe the last episode, SEAL Team 7, you know, like SEAL Team 6, like Tom Clan scene still. Nailed it. Nailed it for three. Um, anyway, I but we're seeing even here at the beginning of chapter eight, the beginning of a progression of different things. And so uh in this context, you have this move from seals to trumpets, and then later you'll see uh progression from trumpets to bowls. And so, Jonathan, what's happening here? Why why are there particularly three different items that are used to describe this interaction of God with uh with mankind as he starts to unleash his wrath on the world?
SPEAKER_00Jesus said that the the seven-year tribulation that it would progressively get worse. So, first of all, it's all known as birth pains, really, that it's going to progressively get worse until there's new life, which is the new heavens, new earth, uh, and the restoration of creation. So leading up to it, there's this progression that will build up. Jesus pointed towards it, Daniel did as well, and why specifically seals, trumpets, and bowls. With seals, you have the way we're we uh are understanding this tribulation is it begin begins with the scroll, which is the plan. That's the whole plan for the tribulation. It's God plan God's plan. And each of those seals were sealed by the king uh to show ownership, authenticity, and security that this is what's gonna happen. So those seals progressively come off revealing and opening the scroll, which is the plan ultimately of what God is gonna do. And then it goes from revealing the plan to the trumpets, which trumpets really signify warnings. Um, and and so that plan as it's being opened, the seals, things are progressively getting worse. But then with those trumpets that begin, which come out of the seventh seal, I don't view these as separate entities. I believe the trumpets essentially are a part of the seventh seal. They come out from that seal. And with those trumpets, a trumpet was always used to give warning and to call to attention and alert. And you see the progression once again of these things that come through those trumpets, and then the bulls ultimately signify the bulls of wrath. And there's a difference there with the trumpets, you see a commonality within all these of a third, a third, a third of each one of these brings a third of destruction, meaning judgments being rendered, but it's not full. It's only a third, uh, which leaves room for grace for those that are on the earth. But with the bulls, you see the full pouring out of God's wrath that comes through that final uh wave, if you will, of judgments. So you see a progression, I guess, in the symbol symbolic nature of seals revealing, bringing it about, trumpets blowing the horn, bringing a third, and then the seals or excuse me, the bulls pouring out the full uh weight of God's wrath.
SPEAKER_02And I think that's helpful for us as we're trying to determine, you know, distinguish between all these symbols because we're I mean we're getting kind of bombarded with them, to be honest. Um but with that, seeing them more as layered rather than necessarily as linear from thing to thing to thing. Um and so then there's there is a question here, because you and you just referenced it with the way that you know things start bad, but they definitely get worse through this. Um why is there an escalation of judgment here? Like you know, why in the why in the world would God, when we get to this this end of time, why would he prolong this to where he starts off with bad and then worse and then worse and then worse until the thing gets just annihilated? Um or I say annihilated. We'll talk about that later about what actually does get annihilated and what doesn't. Um but why is there an escalation? Why didn't God press the nuclear button, so to speak, right there at the beginning and just wipe the thing out?
SPEAKER_00I think it's for two primary purposes. One, I'll say by giving this time, you also give time for repentance and faith. And I think you get into the nature of God also within his love, where he's giving opportunity during this time of tribulation, as things are escalating, there will be witnessing and preaching of the 144,000, the two witnesses that we'll talk about next week, and there's others that are proclaiming Christ. So with this time, even though things are are going to be awful, there will also be opportunity for repentance and salvation. And that's being allowed because God is giving more time over this time of judgment. Uh, if he just did it all at once, that wouldn't happen. But you have once again grace from God, time to repent. But then the second part I think gets more so into the topic of his wrath. Yeah. And really ultimately uh the weight of what that means. Like his wrath is so uh righteous and perfect, but also severe. It's real. And I think I think you see that through the the scope and the weight of the escalation that without that you would not fully understand his righteous judgment. Yeah. And and really, I think also you wouldn't fully appreciate the cross because it through the cross, Jesus has received and taken on the wrath of God so that we can be saved and spared from it through our faith in him. But when you look to the book of Revelation and you see the escalation of things and you really get to see the full breadth of God's wrath being poured out on this earth, it helps you understand what you've been saved from. Right. And it also helps you understand the wrath that our sin brings to this world.
SPEAKER_02Well, and let's talk about that too, because for a for a significant amount of listeners, there's gonna be that question about how God can have wrath. I mean, in a classical sense, you look at the the uh seven mortal sins as uh outlined by the Catholic Church, wrath is one of those. So if wrath is considered sinful for humanity, why why is it right that God is able to do that? And and and I mean, because I mean you made that statement that there is this idea of righteous judgment, that this this is the it is part of the outflowing of his goodness and of his perfection. But I mean, wouldn't that seem to be like God is committing a sin?
SPEAKER_00Well, it can, but it but it uh but you have to come back to the fact that he's different than us, and it is it points back to his righteousness, like you said, that he is righteous and perfect, and that's actually demonstrated even through his wrath and his justice, because the wrath is ultimately about the justice of God that is coming to fruition through the judgment of God and him him bringing this judgment to the world. Uh the reason why he has this wrath is really explained before uh you start seeing the seals open. Chapters four and five are essential because it sets a foundation for why these seals are going to be opened following by the trumpets and the bulls. Because in chapter four, you see the throne room and the focus is on God the Father as the creator, and we're told through him all things exist and they currently are existing, and he's being worshipped as the right creator of the world. But then in chapter five, you see the Lamb of God, and he's being worshipped for being the redeemer of the world, the savior. And so on both ends of that those two categories, you see God is just in his judgment because he is the creator and he created all things, and the creation chose creation over the creator. Yeah. And once again, that brings a response of wrath that we have committed treason and turned against God who created us. But then on the other side, God then went through all the work to redeem us through the blood of his own son. And then you see through creation a response of thanks but no thanks, essentially to the Savior. And because of that, there is a righteous anger and wrath that comes through that. But you can also see through that the love of God, of the means by which he has extended his love to us, it's been demonstrated through creation, but also through redemption. But because we've said no to both, some have, that brings wrath.
SPEAKER_02Well, and let's let's take a second here then, because I think there are there are really three words whenever we consider um this topic of God's righteous judgment in there. So you have discipline, punishment, and wrath. Um now is there a difference between those three words? Are they synonyms? Um, like if if uh because I think there will be some believers who will be listening to this and people who attend who attend a church and worship and that are really afraid of the wrath of God. And so when we see these terms of discipline and punishment and wrath in scripture, how are we supposed to differentiate between these things? And I mean, does that does this mean if if they are similar, does that mean that that Christians should expect to receive the wrath of God themselves?
SPEAKER_00They are different. I'll start there. Uh, and so I guess I'll just go one by one. Discipline. We're told in Hebrews chapter 12 that the Lord disciplines the one whom he loves. So it's not actually something that's going against his enemies, it's something that he does even for the people he loves. And with discipline, oftentimes that comes through the form of trials and hardships and and and difficulties that God uses ultimately to refine us, to build us up and sanctify us. Uh, and there is discipline that comes in our lives. Um, but then you when you talk about punishment, that gets more into the consequences for your sin. Correct. Yeah. And even though a Christian has been saved from the wrath of God, which I'll get into that last, we are not saved from the consequences of our sin. We sin and screw up and we then have to suffer the consequences of that. God still loves us, but there is a punishment. In the same way as a father gives a punishment to a child, you can still love your child, but then make them have to feel the weight of the consequences of that poor decision. And so we are not saved from punishment in that sense, but we are saved from the wrath of God, which is that third tier. And that is ultimately God's righteous judgment. And we are saved from that once and for all through Jesus Christ, by our faith in him, through his life, death, and resurrection. And so uh the wrath will not be faced. We don't have to fear that. That's why we're told in in Romans 8 that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because the wrath of God has been satisfied through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. However, we are not exempt from punishment. We are not exempt from discipline, but they are very different things.
SPEAKER_02And we have to be careful whenever we start to raise the discipline of God to the to the level of understanding is the same as wrath. Because when in where you have the discipline of God, discipline is designed to grow you. It's designed for you to find a better place beyond it. Punishment generally is the same way, that it is temporary, not eternal. I think where where we really have to make that differential differentiation is that when it comes to wrath, wrath doesn't stop. It is it is eternal. And just like God's love is eternal, so also is his wrath to have sin. And uh and so when when we when we when we face suffering in this world, sometimes we're tempted to say, well, this must be God's wrath against me. That's not the case. All people suffer. I mean that that that's part of living in a sinful fallen world means that you're gonna face suffering at some point. And you're gonna and where sin is, there's also gonna be discipline from God. But one of the things I think, and this is kind of a bigger philosophical question that generally I that I've I've tried to work through, some people will look at the role of suffering in the world in general, and the fact that God that in order to complete his righteousness has to express his wrath towards sin. And they and the the question is, well, wouldn't a good God just annihilate people instead? Uh and when I say annihilate, I don't mean just kill. I mean wipe from existence, no longer any soul, no longer any consciousness. Um and what really we'll probably deal with that we we will we will deal with this more later when we talk about the the existence of hell and what it is. But some people will say, and we'll look at that and say, well, if God's wrath is to be complete, why doesn't he just annihilate those souls that rejected them and let them let them go? Um, versus uh creating this idea and and what we're seeing now for both temporal and eternal suffering uh and and the punishment of hell. So um with that, Jonathan, how what's your response to that? That like you know, if God if God were really a kind and loving God, why wouldn't he just annihilate these these people who are the remnant at that point?
SPEAKER_00I'll preface it by saying it's a tough question to tackle. In fact, there have been most famously John Stott as a reputable uh New Testament scholar, evangelical. He was what you would call an annihilationist. So someone who who believed ultimately God would, like you said, make someone cease to exist in their suffering and they wouldn't eternally suffer. The problem with that is biblically, there's not really a case for that. It's quite the opposite, and we'll get into that later in Revelation when it says that. But but what do you say to that? I think a couple things come to mind. The first is we have to remember that we are all eternal creatures, right? We are souls that are living in temporal bodies, but this is what we are created to do. We will exist forever. That's what that's how we made. We're made in the image of God. Uh, we're not God, but we're made in his image and likeness. And part of that is God has created us with an eternal state that's within us. Every single person will be resurrected, every single person will live forever. But there are two different places where they will be forever. But that is within our very nature as image bearers of God. He's made us to reflect him. And like you said earlier, his love is eternal, but also his wrath is e his wrath is eternal because he is the everlasting to everlasting. And so it would go against his very nature and character, in other words, to bring that to a shorter uh end. If God exists outside of space, matter, and time, then that means his love and wrath do as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I and I would say on top of that, too, phil philosophically, it comes down to that question of is it a bigger grace to exist or not to exist, right? Um as you know, sentient beings, we can't we can't comprehend what it would actually be like to not exist. I mean, if you if you ever take that as a thought experiment, what would life be like if I didn't exist, well you wouldn't have consciousness, so you wouldn't know it anyway. And so I I think when we go when we get down that path of annihilationism, we don't have a conception of what it would be to not exist anymore. And in fact, the very base as you made a statement of the very basis of what we believe God to be and what we believe humanity to be is opposed to that idea of not existing. But it is an argument that's used in a lot of arenas, but then it unfortunately it also gets advanced into our modern time as well. When you have issues and I'm going into like abortion and things like that, where it's like, well, it's better for some for a baby to die to not enter the world rather than to grow up in poverty. Well, who are we to freaking say that? I mean, like I'm just being realistic, or or uh if a if a child is gonna have a mental retardation or or some kind some kind of uh chromosomal disorder or something like that, they don't deserve they shouldn't be born because it's a it's a grace to them not to be not to get there. But we don't have that choice. Right. And that's uh but that what that is at the end of the day is us saying it's better not to exist rather than to exist and face suffering. And I think it's incredibly naive to think that that's the case.
SPEAKER_00Um it's also idolatrous because it's just it's us playing God in that context that we claim to have the mind of God and to be able to see the unseen things. But I would agree with you. And I think it goes back to the whole full circle, though, that God is God. And so how can we question him by his very nature? He is different than us. That's why they say holy, holy, holy, and and his ways in this sense of eternal eternity itself is something Solomon says cannot be grasped. Ecclesiastes 3 11. So we can't even get our mind fully around it because we are limited by space, matter, and time. So how can we judge the eternal as a temporal creature here on this earth? It's it doesn't make sense. It it it it it can't it can't go together.
SPEAKER_02And I think at the end of the day, as we're as we're looking at this, I I think one of the ways that it that it helps change our hearts when we approach it, because these are questions that will rightly come up, but the the problem is when we start to play God, which is if we're being reel here about the morality of God's decisions, um we're not reading this correctly because we're not invited when we come into the book of Revelation to come in and to say, well, these are why all the things happen. The revelation is a revealing of what will happen. And our response is not to justify why it's happened, more so it's to what's our response going to be knowing that these things will happen. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's why also I would say to the to the Christian out there, because I know sometimes we look at these topics from an apologetic standpoint, like you're saying, like how do we defend and answer these questions? I always just want to reiterate God's word doesn't need my defense, it speaks for itself. Like God, God doesn't need me, God uses me, praise God, and you and all of us, that we get to speak and give a defense for our faith, 1 Peter 3, but God Himself needs no one to defend him. Him and His Word stand forever. And and I know enemies, those that oppose the faith to use that word, they don't like that answer. But also I I can rest in that answer that that God God He stands alone and His Word stands as true. And and even if it is not received by some, it does not make it less true. Right. Uh and so there's also, I think, in our sense, not that we get to be lazy with our answers, but there also is a peace we can find, right? Understanding that that God will defend himself.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I would also say, like, in there, I don't want to get like way into like the free will on stuff, but uh a question that has come up to me before is like, why would God even make sin to begin with? You guys have heard that one before. Yeah. Why even put the tree in the garden and all that kind of stuff? I think of like the reality is God's plan's better than ours. And even though like the punishment and the wrath and all that exists, there's a purpose in it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I and I would and I would come to, and we won't go dive off into the into the full free will discussion, but what I what I will say is sometimes we get caught up on those kind of things when when what's actually happening is we're denying reality. Exactly. Because uh the the idea uh so often in these arguments is well, what if, dot, dot, dot. And I mean, while that's okay, I guess, to think about those kind of things from an understanding principle, when we get lost in those kind of things, we create false moral systems, we create, we create worlds that don't actually exist. And while while we are we are blinding ourselves to the reality of what is and will happen here, um, you know, it it it's kind of like there there's actually a Christian apologist that I've I've read before who talks about the idea that the proof of God is is based in, well, is this the best possible world conceive of all the realities and stuff like that out there? And it makes that frustrates me a little bit because I'm like, what do you mean by the best possible world? This is the world, this is the only one you got. Yeah, and you don't have multiple other lives to be able to draw upon to get it right. I mean, this is what you've got. And whether you like that or not, it doesn't matter whether you think it's fair or not. I mean, it's just it just it is what it is. Um, and we so often, because we don't want to we don't want to discipline ourselves and we don't want to change the way that we feel, yeah, we start to try to change reality to match what we want rather than conform ourselves to the reality of God's grace and love and his discipline.
SPEAKER_03I think that's also why like Paul talks about consider it great joy when you experience trials and kind of embracing the punishment and the um the discipline on the front end.
SPEAKER_02And I wouldn't even say embracing the punishment, but sharp sharpening yourself, right? Becoming more like Christ. And I mean, because to say that suffering itself is a moral evil, um, what does that say for Christ? Because he clearly suffered and he clearly bore the wrath of God on himself, not because it it was the best, not because it was awesome and they enjoyed it. Yeah, it was it was necessary, it was true, and it's a truth we don't like, but it's a true that we don't get to choose that, I guess. Like what what is what is true versus what is not true. What is true is true, whether we want it to be or not. That's good. Um, and so uh another question that kind of comes up in this, and if you if you were able to watch the sermon um and uh check it out, one of the things that uh Jonathan you talked about was a comparison of these different trumpets to the ten plagues that were uh visited upon the Egyptians as a part of the Exodus. Um and one thing that I I've seen debated a lot uh over time is the role of hardening of heart, right? So when when I'm reading here in uh Revelation 8 and 9, and I see all these terrible things happening and things being flung into the sea, and ostensibly at this point, Christians are no longer there because they've been raptured, which even if you're mid-tribulation, I think that by the time the trumpets hit, there's just really no way that they're still there. Yeah. And so at that point, because you made this statement also why so God doesn't press the nuclear button so that he's still giving people a chance to repent. Well, what the heck? What else do you need when when this thing called giant thing called wormwood comes and makes a third of the world's water undrinkable? Um I mean, what is the matter with people? And so sometimes people will look at that and then we'll also compare it to to Pharaoh uh in the Exodus. And so in that in that situation, uh Jonathan, how how do you look at what when there because it says two different things in that passage? The first one is it says that Pharaoh hardened his heart, but then later in it, it makes a statement, well, God hardened Pharaoh's heart. So do those things compare to what we're seeing here in eight and nine? And then how does that make sense with a God who loves us and does want us to find salvation in him?
SPEAKER_00I think there is a parallel. Um ultimately the first parallel I'll state is there's a warning, like before the plagues, even there with Pharaoh. There was a warning. You know, at the beginning, Moses is sent in, given a warning. In the book of Revelation, you see a warning. Warning coming through the preaching of the hundred and forty-four thousand. You see uh the proclamation of the gospel and you see the trumpets being sounded, whether you believe in that literal or symbolic, but there is a seemingly a trumpet being sounded saying, This is on the way, this is coming, here's the judgment, here's the next plague, if you will, using that same terminology. So there's there's grace that's given on the front end of you don't have to do this, but then it happens. And and like you said, in verse 20 of chapter nine, it says, None of them repented after any of it, which I talked about that yesterday that I thought that was the most terrifying part of all of it. And and you see the same thing with Pharaoh going through it over and over, round after round, and you're like, my goodness, if you read that in Exodus, like when's this guy just gonna humble himself and he won't do it? Now, to your question of you know, the hardening, it's yes to both. You know, Pharaoh hardened his heart, and then how did he get how did his heart stay hard? It was through each round, it just kept happening, and he was hardened, I believe, because he didn't have the capacity to stop it. Right. That makes him mad that God's winning and he can't stop this, and now he's angry. Yes, exactly. He doesn't have the bandwidth to be the Pharaoh that he thought he was, and he can't do it. And in and that hardens his heart. And and and with I believe there you see in Revelation through the trumpets, you see most likely the same thing happening in creation is the people had chosen the creation over the creator, so the creator starts to actually deconstruct his creation, right? And they don't have the ability to stop it. And and and I'm sure there is anger, there is rage, uh, there's a lot of false teaching also that's happening because you see the demonic forces that are at work. It actually said the demons that were unleashed there in trumpet number five that they were alluring, they had hair like women, which I think is always an interesting symbol. Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_02That's an ugly-looking little creature there, you know.
SPEAKER_00But I know, but what we always think of that as symbolic. Like, who are these creepy-looking creatures that have a man's face and woman's hair and locust wings and yada? You look at all that stuff, but it's symbolic, I believe, of a spiritual army that's at work. And what they are doing is they're deceiving, and they're deceiving. And one way they deceive people, and they demons still deceive people today, is when you're suffering and you brought it on yourself, you blame God. Yeah, and you blame God and you get angry. And people do the same thing today. The demons still work the same way. When you are suffering, hey, don't run to God. Blame him for your problems and harden your heart. And you see the same thing happen in trip the tribulation.
SPEAKER_02And it it kind of connects even to this greater principle that we keep seeing happen here, where we see these shadows uh right now of the things that will be in Revelation, right? And you make that statement. Sometimes people will, when facing the consequences of their sin and and the the and the reality of suffering, instead of turning to repentance, turn into hatred toward God, and they start worshiping their own bitterness and wrath. And so it's it's it it's interesting that while we we can even see this today in the way that people respond toward hardship in their lives, where there are some people that you'll know that will that will have every opportunity in the that will have been mistreated or treated uh treated poorly in the past. And even though they've been given every opportunity to pull themselves out of that and to experience new life and to experience forgiveness and things like that, instead they choose to continue to make their identity as a bitter person, as a victim, and as a way to express hatred and anger for the way that they've been treated. And and so I mean it shouldn't be a surprise to us that these people who live their entire lives rejecting God and and who lived their life up to even that point with the with these horsemen and with the unread the opening of the sc the scroll and the unsealing of it, I mean, at that point, the sea all the seals are opened. There's nothing about what God's will toward toward mankind and toward sin is at this point. And so that the ability for excuse is now gone altogether. Um and one thing that that does stick to me too in this is we're talking about the hardening of heart, but uh and all even to the justification of wrath. We didn't let's not forget that part of the role of what's happening here is God's vengeance on the behalf of his people of what was done. Exactly right. Because earlier here in the book of Revelation, you have the blood of the martyrs speaking, and you have the prayers of the saints going up. And for people who are saying, How long, O Lord, till this happens? Um part of this is God answering that question. It is, it's what prompts it. Yeah, it's what prompts his action. Because that's the that's there in the uh whenever the seventh seal is open.
SPEAKER_00It's the catalyst that makes it move, which that to me is a is a scene as well that that God has this wrath, it's being stored up. But what is ultimately the prompting that gets it moving is mankind, the saints that have been martyred and wronged by the wicked, saying, Lord, act because you are just. You can't tolerate this, don't do this. This goes against your character. Do something, please. And so it even shows you in that sense that even as a believer, as uncomfortable as judgment and wrath is, and none of us want any of our friends or others outside the faith to perish and have eternal life apart from Christ, there's also this longing in our hearts for justice from Christ. Like we want God to make things right, and that prayer is sincere and it's what prompts God to action in Revelation.
SPEAKER_02And really, that's kind of the the um one of the things when it and this is I may be getting a little off the track here, but you know, when you have those psalms and those biblical passages that are calling for the the judgment of God to come down on people and even you know, kind of this isn't funny, but in the in the psalms talking about bathing his feet in his enemy's blood and stuff like that, you know, the reality of these what's called those are called imprecatory psalms is calling upon part of God's nature to be to be uh acted out and to and to be done for the the the sake of his glory and for the sake uh of the good of the people that he loves. And I I think that's one of the things that should be an I mean this is not something we shouldn't be super happy that this is this is all happening, but at the same time, there is a a note of God said that he will be just and he is gonna be just to the nth degree. Um and we can lean and depend upon that.
SPEAKER_00And we want that in our spirit if God lives in us, which he does, God is a God of justice, so there's a longing for justice that's in every one of our hearts. And part of that comes into this aspect of God dealing with the wicked, those who have said no, and especially in this context, those who have brought persecution, suffering, and pain to the people of God. And uh, and God answers those prayers one day.
SPEAKER_02And it does it does also bear noting that if there's anybody left at this point, or the people that are left at this point, it's probable that they were participated in this to some extent. And we'll kind of get into that deeper later when we talk about the role of what the Antichrist is gonna do. But you know, instead of we gotta be careful about looking at all these people as oh, there's all these innocent people. Realistically, there's been a lot of bad stuff happening at this point, so ain't nobody left who is uh who's a good person. Yeah. Um, but that does kind of bring up another question that to me that as I'm looking at this, because we we talked about last time that your belief of the of the first rider on the white horse is the and is the the symbolic of the antichrist. Well, and as we see these trumpets, I don't I'm curious as to what what is the Antichrist doing at this point? Where is he? Is he is he experiencing all of these things just alongside everybody alongside everybody else?
SPEAKER_00He is, he's in the background. Uh he will come back to the to the forefront in Revelation 13, where you're gonna get to see more information about him, uh, because there's about to be an interlude. So what's gonna happen is there's an interlude here before the seventh trumpet, and more things kind of get people or things are explained. The other things are brought in, and there's parts of Revelation that kind of jump in and out of this chronological timeline. I would call the chronology of Revelation, really, you see with the seals leading to the trumpets, which lead into the bowls. But then in between, there's these interludes where other information kind of comes up and it jumps around in the chronology. So, but the antichrist, he's there for the whole bit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh, and so ultimately, what is he doing? If you see this as trumpets, the trumpets I believe probably happened most likely there in that final year, that final portion of the tribulation, it's well into what's known as the Great Tribulation. Right. So if you put that picture into the context of Daniel 9 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist halfway in through the tribulation would have demanded, he would have turned from deceiving the people as a as a leader of peace using signs and wonders to now a leader who demands the worship of himself. And so he would have turned, would have brought bloodshed, he would have killed a lot of those martyrs, him and his forces, those who would not. We'll talk about the mark of the beast and other things that are come out later. I don't want to talk about that now because it's coming later, but but he will be uh ultimately ravaging the saints and killing them. Uh and Revelation 20 talks about how they they are killed by the guillotine, they're they're they lose their heads, and so literally the saints are being slaughtered during this time. Yeah, and one could argue are there really any left at this point? It's a fair question to ask because also you see none repenting there. I believe the church rap is raptured, and at this point, all the Christians outside the 144,000 that are marked are being killed for their faith because the Antichrist and his works and effects.
SPEAKER_02Well, and so then jumping back into where we are here with the trumpets, that something that kind of there is an interesting portion where we talk about these locusts that get released from the pit. And then you have this this part where they give names to these guys, uh, or to at least one of these guys. So it talks about the person who's the king of the pit, and it says that his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek his name is Apollyon. And so kind of a question that came to mind to me in that is who who who is this? I I think you I I believe in the sermon you identified him as Satan. Um, but what why are we getting different names for him then? Like why why here is he not called Satan or Beazelbub or or you know, whatever other names there are for him?
SPEAKER_00Well, words always names always have meanings behind them. So the Greek and the Hebrew words are given there, but they both refer to destruction or the one who destroys. So this is giving a uh a picture of what this leader looks like, which I believe it's the same star that was seen falling, that had already fallen rather earlier in the chapter. They're following him. And so Satan ultimately is the one leading those demonic forces. Make no doubt about it, the Antichrist is involved as well. But if we're talking about an organizational chart, Satan's at the top of it, if you will. And so the hell is an organization. Look at an organizational chart, those can be hell. So what you see here is he is the leader, but the antichrist, I believe, is certainly working uh around. But that that's who I would argue is it's Satan. And it's a picture too of Satan being unleashed on this earth to do things up to this point he's been restrained from doing because he's given this key for that limited amount of time to unleash a different level of hell on earth. And that's what's gonna happen during this final wave of tribulation. And then we'll get into this later, so we won't live here, but then the long story short, Jesus will return, and then I believe what the word of God's gonna tell us, and we'll get there, is Satan will then be bound for a thousand years. And then heaven will come down to earth, there'll be a kingdom, and then after that, uh thousand years, he'll be released and destroyed. So right now he's on borrowed time, limited time in this moment of the tribulation.
SPEAKER_02Well, and something that comes to mind right now for me is when other places in the Bible where we see this particular kind of thing happen, where Satan is given the ability to directly impact a human being. You look at the the the case of Job. Yeah. Now it's a very di but see it it happens in a very different way there, where at that point Satan is given this authority to go and to afflict Job with bad things around him, which kind of kind of looks like the beginnings here of the first four trumpets where bad things are happening around all of this stuff. Um I say that though. Like uh I'm trying to remember. Let me look back here. Um I mean, yeah, because you don't see massive death there in those first four trumpets, particularly other than it's just torment, and then the fifth one's torment, and then you get the third dead and sixth. And you and you have the transition even in the text to where it goes from just being the trumpets to being three woes, something that uh that is directly impacting on mankind. I just I think it's it's interesting to see that in the book of uh in the book of Job, um he's given that authority to an extent, but he's not allowed to kill Job. Right. And we do see that that borderline get passed here where uh you start seeing death in a few.
SPEAKER_00The only kicker though I will say is the hundred and forty-four thousand are preserved. So even those that are marked, it says on their forehead, that that they are going to be preserved during that time. Um so there is there is protection, but I really think the biggest difference when I think about that of Job versus what you see here in Revelation, with Job, Satan's being used as an instrument to test and refine Job and his faith. Like ultimately, that is a time of discipline, if you will, going back to some of those terminologies, and and Satan's being used as a vessel for that. But then you go, you fast forward to the book of Revelation. Satan at this point is being used as a vessel to bring about God to pour out God's wrath into this world through him. And it makes me think actually into the Old Testament, where God would sometimes use his enemies to bring judgment to this world. Yeah, and what you see is him use the enemy, the father of lies, to bring about judgment into this world in the New Testament context through Revelation. It made me think of uh Habakkuk, the prophet, just off the top of my head, when he's crying out to the Lord, what are you doing about these Assyrians? And he's hating all the evil that's happening in Israel, and God says, I've got a great plan, I'm gonna deal with those Assyrians, don't worry. The Chaldeans are coming up next. And the Babylonians It only gets worse, buddy. Yes, but but it's a great example that God uses the wicked to judge the wicked right there. And so, in the same sense, right here, you're seeing God use the most wicked, Satan, his the demons, his demonic forces to judge the wicked, those who have have uh have shaken their fist at God and said no.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think there is a very cool distinction there on two in two places with with Job's example. First one being, like you said, that he's ultimately protected. And so that being the dis difference between discipline and wrath. Wrath, there is no protection. All the gloves are off. The other thing, though, that gives me a little bit of um, I guess, comfort, which is weird in this, is that Satan's not doesn't play any new games. He kind of runs the same playbook over and over again of incre in increasingly trying to attack humanity by starting around the issue to the personal part of the issue. Yeah. And so it, you know, we we look at, I mean, realistically, we really should look at the devil as kind of a broken record. He kind of does the same things over and over and over again, which then as we're seeing him ultimately doing this in the book of Revelation, he's doing the same play over and over again because that's who he is. That's that's what that's the way that's what he's geared toward.
SPEAKER_03Just maybe with a little more haste since it's his last days.
SPEAKER_02Well, and and to the end to the greatest degree, which we see happening you know in Revelation. Everything that's happening here is present somehow in the present in our present time, but we see it extended to it to what its fullest ability is. Um and and so these things that we're seeing happen are not completely alien to us, that we're given these shadows so that we can so that like ironically, like with these trumpets, we're given warnings of look, this is what is coming. Yeah, prepare yourselves. Um and so as we're kind of I know we're gonna we're starting to get a little bit over time today here, but um another question that I have here is in particular to our views of what we're seeing here in Revelation, because one of the things that that has struck my mind at different times is the role of popular culture and the way that we see the things that are happening here. So if you live in Austin, Texas, one of the ways that you see this in the the greatest extent is the fact that Torchie's tacos has a little red devil guy with horns and a pitchfork and all that kind of stuff. But that's not really a biblical perspective on what on what the the devil ultimately looks like, but how is it that it came to be that way? And so, I mean, one thing that I hope you listeners like that there are different influences on culture over time. Dante's inferno, for one, uh Milton uh John Milton's Paradise Lost, the Exorcist, which we we use real really to has informed most of our understanding of what demons are and how they impact humanity. Um, and then the Left Behind series, if we're being honest, that most I would say, I would dare say that most evangelicals in the in the United States at least, their perception of what's happening in the book of Revelation is almost entirely dependent on what they read in the Left Behind series. Or watched. Or watched, if you if you were you know subjecting. That's actually the fifth trumpet, is they make them watch Left Behind. Is that mean? Is that mean? Oh man. I don't know, I haven't seen it. But no, so but Jonathan, why is that though? Like why why are we drawn like whenever we're trying to to craft our understanding of the things that we're seeing here in Revelation about the spiritual world and the ultimate end of things, why are why are we why do we choose to gravitate toward popular popular culture, literature, movies, things like that as a as a better way of trying to understand or the way that we more functionally try to understand this?
SPEAKER_00Well, my first thought was I think every person, lost or Christian, senses we sense urgency about this matter. Which that that part I've always thought is interesting too. If you just talk about evidence of God and God's word and the validity of scripture, it's that every person on earth just seems to have a little bit of nervousness of what on earth's gonna happen? Like where's this going? And and and our fascination with the apocalypse and all of these things, I think it's only further credibility ultimately of the truth of the word of God and us being made in God's image. And we naturally kind of have that radar going off internally of like, okay, there's some questions that need to be answered here. What's gonna happen? This doesn't seem like it's going somewhere good, but then that leads us to go seek answers. And what I've also found is I think the enemy loves what he always would do uh when he was attacking Jesus, if you remember Matthew 4, is he always would would misquote scripture. He takes something a little bit true, but then twist it in a different direction. And you look at apocalyptic pop culture and movies and things, that's exactly what happens. Like yesterday I quoted about Armageddon. I made a silly joke about you know the asteroid there with the fourth trumpet, or is it the second, third trumpet? It's coming down to the earth, and how that ultimately that fascination of we're gonna get smeared by an asteroid, that paranoia is all over our world. And we make movies about it. Well, yeah, because the Bible says this is gonna happen. And then I even thought about this is gonna be really stupid, but like in the Marvel franchise, the blip and how like half the world's just gone suddenly, which which I thought about that yesterday. I was like, you know what? I just preached a sermon saying half the world's gonna be gone by the time we get to Trumpet Six. This is biblical promise. These are prophecies, yes, exactly. And pretty much as quick as within the snap of a finger. And then once again, we have these storylines come out like, yeah, what if the world just disappeared? It's like, yeah, this is gonna happen. You think that's just all there? I think Satan is a counterfeit to God. And so he hijacks truth and then he redirects it in deceiving ways. And so I think he's taken the natural urgency and fascination that we have, redirected it in really stupid places. So we get bored and fixated on things that ultimately do not matter. Right. And it leads us to become lazy to actually study the thing that does matter, which really is the word of God. Like it's much easier to scratch that itch of urgency and fascination by reading a stupid comic book or watching a lousy movie than actually going to the word of God and saying, Well, what does he say? Yeah. And what is the truth? Instead, we go to the counterfeit truth, which Satan, Satan gives to us all around us in culture.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Satan runs the same play over and over and over again. Well, and as we come to the close here, one last um, I guess curiosity to me. Uh we talked about this before we came onto the the on air today, but in um in 8.8, uh chapter 8, verse 8, it makes a statement about something like a great mountain burning with fire thrown into the sea. Yeah. And I couldn't help but think back to um Mark 1123, where it makes the statement that if you have a faith like a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain be thrown into the sea. And so while I don't know that that's a direct uh connotation there, I do I do find it interesting that in these in these great acts of power and wrath that are we're seeing in Revelation, you see something similar but greater in what Jesus describes as faith. I mean, wh how do you how do you you look at that, John?
SPEAKER_00I had never processed that before until you brought that to my attention, so I'd have to study that more and see if there's been more commentary that's been provided on that. Uh, but you see, yeah, I mean, you see ultimately two different pictures of a mountain. One is destruction because they have no faith, because they've they've said no to faith, and now they're receiving a mountain that's being thrown upon the world. And then on the other side, Jesus is essentially saying if you would have faith, you could do amazing things. You could move the mountains, you know, you could do some crazy things. And so uh it shows you, I think, the power ultimately, if I were just gonna make a take on it right now, that faith plays in our lives. Like when we have faith, God does supernatural things through us, and he can and he will do it. But when we do not have faith, we will receive really the pain of supernatural wrath that will come against us. But either way, it shows you at the crux is faith and and and the power that lies within it to have it or on the other side to not have it.
SPEAKER_02And I would say definitely this should be an encouragement to us because we read the book of Revelation and we get scared about it. I mean, it's it's it's scary kind of stuff that's happening here. And to me, I'm looking at that and saying, you know, these are these are frightening and powerful things. And what does that mean then for the action of faith in my life? What can that do? You know, other elsewhere in the gospel, uh, after Peter makes his confession of who Jesus is, he then goes on to say, whatever you whatever you say will be loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven, and whatever you'll buy bound on earth will be bound in heaven. The pursuit of Christ and releaning leaning on him in faith is so much more powerful than we could ever possibly imagine. And we're given just a taste of it here. And so, listener, as you approach Revelation, you're gonna be tempted to be nervous, anxious about the things that you're reading here, because there's a lot of pain, there's a lot of wrath, there's a lot of power being exhibited here. But recognize the power that rests in you as a believer, and recognize the power of the one that saved you from this wrath by taking the very things we're seeing on this on himself. Because everything that happens to humanity at this point is deserved. It is the punishment, the wrath that all all deserved, but yet Christ took that on himself for our sake. And so I hope that that's an encouragement to you that as you hear about mountains being flung into the sea, don't forget who promised you that your faith could move mountains. Um so with that, uh, I think we're just about out of time. Um, Jonathan, anything else for the listeners?
SPEAKER_00I'm all good.
SPEAKER_02All right, Stephen, you got anything? No. All right, well, uh, thank you all for joining us today. We'll continue working through uh Revelation uh director's cut next week as we hit uh chapters 10 and 11. Isn't that correct, Jonathan? Two more chapters. Yep and so uh keep reading ahead with us. Um and we hope that as you have personally questions that you feel like, hey, it'd be great if they address those on the show, uh, you can email them to infotaustinbaptistchurch.com or uh you can reach us through our Instagram at Austin Baptist Church by a direct message. But take care. Let's keep discovering together. And on behalf of Jonathan and Steven, we hope to see you next time on the Citizen ATX podcast.