Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Revelation_Directors Cut: The Time Has Come
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Every great drama has a point where circumstances become so low that it looks like the characters are at "rock bottom". Then something major happens and the characters life begins to look up. If they are lucky, then they might even get a "happily ever after". That is similar to this section of Revelation, except there is no luck involved. The only path for hope and the only way out of eternal suffering is through faith in God. Join Matt, Jonathan, and Stephen as they unpack the end of tribulation in Revelation 14-16.
Hi there and welcome to the Citizen ATX podcast. My name is Matt Gillum, and we are glad that you are joining us in our Revelation Director's Cut series. We have been doing for the past several weeks. How many weeks are we gone we gone now, John? Eight or nine. Eight or nine. Time is a meaningless construct, right? It's a circle. Um, no. We every week we have been following along with uh the sermon series that's been happening from the uh pulpit at Austin Baptist Church as we walk chapter by chapter through the book of Revelation. And this week, as a treat, we're gonna be going through three chapters. So and so whenever whenever Jonathan was preaching this, I was like, oh man, this is a lot of content. But hey, you know what? We're gonna get through, we're gonna have a great time on the podcast today. So joining with me today on the podcast is Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Hello, Matthew. And then also joining us is Stephen Vaughn. Hello, Stephen. Hello. And so today, I think we just jump right into this. Um, the first thing that I wanted to bring up is the fact that we start to see actually we see this before chapter 14, but at multiple places, this statement of then I looked. So, Jonathan, uh, when we see John in the book of Revelation, say say then I looked or then I saw, um, how should we take that? Uh, and how does that relate to timeline stuff?
SPEAKER_03It's providing different visions, I guess context to vision. So there's separation there. So, like in chapter 14, there's three different visions that that really compose that chapter. So the then I looked, it's bringing separation and closure essentially from the previous line of thought of what we were looking at, and then bringing your attention to something new, uh, which in the context of this chapter is several different visions. But I think that's one the best thing to note is just that it means he's calling your attention to something separated from what he was calling your attention to right before that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Sometimes reading through the book of Revelation is like being at a CC's pizza buffet. Like you don't know when to stop, right? You just keep on going and going. And so God gives us, in the way that he revealed it to John, this opportunity to be able to stop, consider, and divide and organize. And so we hope you listener, as you're reading through the book of Revelation, when you see then I saw, consider that maybe you need to stop and consider, okay, what's just happened? What is the scene, what's the scene, where are we at this time? Uh and so where we are here, as John then I looked, there at chapter 14, verse 1, we see the 144,000 show up again. And so they they've been hanging out there on earth, have been sealed, have been protected from a lot of this wrath that's been coming down. But then you have kind of an interesting thing here where he goes, where John goes into a statement about the fact that these 144,000 are uh virgins. And so uh I know that from a sermon stage it's a little hard to it's a little hard to deal with and really kind of you know always interesting. But uh do we think, I mean, does this affect the nature of what we see as sexual morality in the church? So as I'm hearing that, and I'm looking at the 144,000, like they're supposed to be the cream of the crop, essentially. Like the ones who are chosen at the end of time protected are gonna be the ones that lead the charge as Jesus comes back. Right. Um and so why then is a point made about their about their personal sexual morality that they are that they're all virgins?
SPEAKER_03Well, I think it's it goes beyond just physical sexuality. I think there's symbolic spiritual uh reality to what that word's trying to communicate. It's speaking towards above all spiritual fidelity, that that these people are faithful to God, that they belong to him. There's also a contrast, uh, just as the beast has marked his, we talked about that in Revelation 13 and Revelation 7. We saw that God marked his, and those were the 144,000. And the ones that are marked by uh the beast and that that become part of this Babylon the Great, we're going to talk about in the following chapters, they're gonna be depicted as a prostitute. So there's also two different sides where this prostitute's alluring to those, trying to get them to come and worship the beast. And meanwhile, you have within God's team with the 144,000, those Jewish evangelists, you see that they've been blameless, we're told, and that they're virgins, meaning that they are not being allured by the prostitute, which we'll get into that next week. I don't necessarily want to talk about all that today, but but that they've remained faithful, that they haven't been lured to go pursue immorality, uh, idolatry, the worship of the beast. So um so those things go together. I think above all it's it's pointing towards that they've been faithful to God as as as the bride, essentially, to as the bride, and they've been faithful to their calling that he's given them.
SPEAKER_01And I think this is part of the reason why it's so important for interpretation to be used in the book of Revelation and in the Bible in general, because historically, um, I mean, the especially the Roman Catholic Church has a very interesting interaction with the idea of virginity, with uh the call of celibacy to its priesthood, um, and then also, frankly, the Immaculate Conception, which, you know, I I it took me a long time, I was I don't remember how old I was when I found out that the Immaculate Conception wasn't talking about Jesus, but talking about Mary. That uh according to Roman Catholic tradition, Mary's mom was uh Mary was born in the same kind of union like Jesus was where there was no father. Um there was that God was the father. And so, you know, I think why I bring this up is that we tend to take points of action here and then say, well, okay, so this is now a primary thing. But I I like that you bring up that fact that it is more descriptive um rather than prescriptive. Um really what I'm getting to on that.
SPEAKER_03Well, and we're gonna get into uh in the following chapters when in chapters uh 17 and 18, which really will focus on the fall of Babylon and on the focus will shift to the prostitute, there will be a lot more that will be added to help us understand where we're gonna see the allure of the prostitute that's enticing people to follow the beast, and and that allure comes through ultimately pleasure. And like you're saying, that's tied into sexual immorality, idolatry, uh, and all kinds of forms of pleasure. So what you see is the hundred and forty-four thousand lived through that time and they said no. Like they stood up for the Lord, they said no to the pleasures of this world to live for the pleasure uh through the presence of the Lord and through ultimately faithfulness to him. So that's why there's such strong words being used to describe them.
SPEAKER_01And I think it's interesting too that we've just come out of that part of the book of Revelation where there's been the talk about the 666 and those are sealed by the by the Antichrist. Um and so that you have this juxtaposition of the hundred that you know, but the person who's reading this at this time probably has to be in a little bit of despair of, oh my gosh, everybody is getting marked this way, and this is where it's all gonna go. And then in the midst of that, God gives this vision of that, but that's not really the whole story of what's gonna happen. That in fact, it's a counter what the Antichrist is doing is a counterfeit of what I've already already done with the 144,000. So then you have that that that encouragement there where it talks about the 144,000, then we have a then I saw, and we have a series of three angels that go flying overhead um with different um messages. And so um one thing that I um that I noticed about this and that I I think we see a lot through uh the book of Revelation is this primacy with the angels of talking and delivering messages being their main purpose. And so I mean, is it does that track I mean while how and why why would these supernatural beings why would their main thing because like why wouldn't laser beams shooting out of their eyes or you know uh like super strength or something like that be the be the thing instead of them always delivering messages whenever they show up?
SPEAKER_03Well they're made to be messengers. That's what an angel is, so they're messengers for God, but I think also it reminds us of a contrast there where the devil, the serpent, uh the the dragon, he's had lots of names in this book. He also was an angel and he didn't want to be a messenger for God, he wanted to speak as God. And so I think you also see once again a a uh contrast there of of what the true heavenly angels are doing and how they're created to be is to serve the Lord according to his purposes and to bring his news, his message, and to serve him as he desires, where the dragon speaks as he desires according to his own terms and what he wants to say. Um but in this case you see these angels doing angelic things, which is uh ultimately they're serving as heralds going uh uh across the earth and proclaiming these three different messages, but it goes into their essence, it's who they are, it's what God made them to be, uh, to serve him and his perfect purposes, and they they're meant to take messages.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think it is again, we we talked about in a previous week about the role of a king and that the the symbol of his power is the ability that he's able to proclaim something and then that thing happens. So we certainly see that carried out through the angels. But then when we have these angels, we start to see another concept that that Jonathan and I were talking about off-air. Uh why is wine used as the medium of God's wrath? So we see we see this in multiple places. The second angel, the third angel both talk about the kind of wine that those who are uh found outside of Christ are going to have to have to drink. And so, you know, I mean, we're talking about boxed wine here. Are we talking about what is why is it that wine is particularly used for the symbol of God's wrath?
SPEAKER_03There's a lot of things I think that can point towards that. Obviously, first of all, wine, red wine, looks like blood. So there's there's that just direct symbol of of the imagery. But but if you think about wine, and wine's used all throughout the scriptures in the Old Testament, it's used oftentimes for celebration in different moments. Uh in fact, with the Last Supper, when Jesus went to the table with his disciples, he passed the cup. Uh and that cup was a cup that of wine that he passed, but he gave it new meaning, where he told him it's the cup of the new covenant in his blood. And he told us as often as we drink to do this in remembrance of him. So that that cup has always had meaning in the scriptures, but one of those things that you see in the scriptures is also this idea of a cup of wrath. And and what I think you see is uh towards the tail end of Revelation is you see two different cups that that will become prevalent here in these chapters of the really difficult ones, 14 through really 18, as we're getting through the wrath of God uh being poured out. We see Babylon is forced to drink the cup of his wrath of that wine. Then you get to chapter 19 and you see the marriage supper of the lamb, and you see the bride getting to drink a different cup. It's a cup of celebration. Uh, and so what you see here is this is a cup, but it's a cup of wrath that they've have to uh take. It's not a moment of celebration, it's a moment of punishment, uh, versus the celebratory cup that will be passed there at the marriage supper of the lamb in Revelation chapter 19.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think it is interesting that wine itself is a kind of double-edged sword, right? That like even in its very nature, you know, it's designed to to make the like as it talks about in Proverbs to make the the heart glad, and yeah. Um, but then on on the flip side of that, it also intoxicates, yeah, and you know, too much of it can bring alcohol poisoning and and all and obviously Proverbs brings all that to bear. And I do think there's something to that about that dividing point of what Christ did for us, that on one hand those who are found in him uh are able to enjoy the sacrifice for what it was, and on the flip side of that, those who don't believe, who don't accept, have to uh experience what actually this is kind of not the same cup that Jesus drank. I I don't know. I mean what how how does that what do you mean by that? Well, because I mean if if if he if people are drinking of the cup of wrath, and we say we say that when Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane talks about uh this cup that's being given to me, I mean, is that the experience that they will receive similar to what Christ experience experienced on the ground?
SPEAKER_03I believe the weight of it was um because ultimately if Jesus is a substitutionary sacrifice, that wrath had to be absorbed. It had to be. And that's why Jesus says that he took that cup in full. Now, you could go down the list of the plagues and compare that to all the things that plagued Jesus during his earthly ministry and ultimately through his torture and crucifixion.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and maybe there aren't direct one-for-one looking at contrasts of, well, where's the hail? You know, like we didn't see the hail in the in Calvary, but what we did see was hell, you know, the coming down on Jesus here on this earth. And so I while they were uh not the exact same uh punishment, if you will, of the criteria, I believe the weight of it was absolutely satisfied and it was full and it was equal. Um, so and I think it's worth noting that's why Jesus says it's finished, and he says that word to telesty at Calvary, and then you hear when the bowls come out uh in chapter 15 that with this the wrath of God will be finished. It's the same word to telesty. And so through these bowls, that wrath will be poured out just as it was poured out in full at Calvary. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it seems to me that when we're looking at this, wrath wrath is not a variable. Like there's not a variable amount of wrath that's received, right? That it that in the context of where there is sin, there is God's wrath. And so the effectiveness of receiving that wrath is different for unbelievers versus the way that Jesus because Jesus met the criteria beforehand, right? We talk about why so why does wrath come upon humanity? It's because of sin. Right. What did Jesus not have in his life? Sin. And so as a result, those who identify with him then identify with his sinless nature because he has borne that constant of wrath upon themselves. So when whenever we talk about the kind of things that unbelievers will receive, yes, it'll be, I think it'll be that same level of pain and wrath and torture that Jesus went through just without, without um, oh what's the word? Not justification, but but without uh redemption. That I mean it is the full it's not a continue, it's not a purging, it is a this is gonna happen, and it's gonna happen forever. Right. Um, which is an interesting, brings up an interesting part of this when these three angels are are flying over. The third one we see the juxtaposition of uh hell, of the tormenting of fire and sulfur, but then it's done in the presence of the lamb. And so a question that comes to mind, and I think that this is important as we're considering what hell is, um, who is the Lord of hell in this scenario? I mean, like if we're if we're talking, as we're looking, I think generally, when I think about what hell is, I mean, I'm I'm influenced by Paradise Lost, where Satan says Satan says better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven, right? So, Jonathan, as we're reading this passage, and not just this passage, but all the really all the passages about hell in the Bible, who is the king in hell?
SPEAKER_03Well, Jesus already answered it in Revelation chapter one, in verse 18, I believe it is. He says that he has the keys to death and Hades. So Jesus is in charge. He's in charge of heaven, but he's in charge of hell. And in fact, in Philippians chapter 2, we're told when Christ returns, every knee will bow. It says on earth and under the earth, it actually says that every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that Christ is Lord. So he's Lord over all, uh, including hell. Um, it makes me think back to, I think it was in Luke 8. I'm I'm citing this from memory, so I could be wrong, but there's that that story where Jesus is dealing with some guy that has all these demons in him. And remember, Jesus is rebuking him and says, What's your name? The demons say, My name is Legion, because there's many of us. Yeah. And you remember what they do is they're terrified of him. They say, What are you doing here? Because they already knew who he was. He's the Lord over hell. He's in charge, he's the one uh who ultimately holds that key. And then they tried to beg and barter with him. They said, Just don't throw us into the abyss, uh, which is a place that sinks down there. Yeah, which we see the abyss get opened up once again with the fifth trumpet that we talked about weeks ago. So Jesus is a known commodity in hell. They fear him, they know who he is, and he's the one who has the keys to death in Hades. So when you see this suffering come up here and the torment of hell being brought up by that second angel, uh the third angel rather, you see once again the presence of the Lamb.
SPEAKER_01Then if if Jesus is the Lord of hell, then doesn't that mean that hell the existence of hell and what's happening there is serving him ultimately? Yeah. I mean, well, what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_03Well, I think ultimately it's a it's it's a it gives evidence to his justice. I mean, ultimately it exists. We talked about this yesterday that heaven and hell are both eternal realities and they will continue to exist. And and ultimately both of them give God glory in a sense. You know, obviously we give God glory through surrendering and to through following him and loving him and receiving the grace that he's given us.
SPEAKER_01Which would ultimately be what heaven is.
SPEAKER_03That's heaven, exactly. And then on the opposite side, those who refuse and are obstinate, they receive eternal punishment, which likewise brings glory to God because ultimately he's exercising dominion and there's justice for uh their sin and for their obstinate hearts against him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And that's why I think we can see that uh that mirrored in the way in the picture of the wine, picture of what heaven and hell are, that they're both they're not separate from one another, but they're they're of the same character, they're from the same character of God. And for us to separate out the two creates a problem for us because then you have a two-sided God, a two-faced kind of God who loves some and hates others, things like that. The reality is he loves all. Exactly. And the the people who don't love are us toward him. Yeah. And so, I mean, it it it is kind of a you know, I I think it should be a humbling thing for us that, especially for those of us who have received Christ, that you know, we we do deserve that cup of wrath. And in fact, if we are in our natural selves, that's what we're going to do. I mean, that's the way that we're going to be bent. Um, but praise God, praise Jesus that He took that for us, you know.
SPEAKER_03Well, and and also I just want to remind us, because as we talk about hell, sometimes it can sound like we're just talking about it flippantly, like it's like it's no big deal, and that somehow this is a light thing. It's not a light thing, and ultimately it's not a light thing to God either. That's what I think people need to know is sometimes people look at God uh and they feel like he's just somehow getting joy out of smiting people and and putting them in hell. It makes me think to Ezekiel where Ezekiel in thirty uh chapter 33, verse 11, God says, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked would turn from his way and live. That's what God wants, of the heart of God, because God is love, first John 4 16. He wants people to live, he wants them to turn from their wicked ways, but he's also just and he's righteous.
SPEAKER_01And so when he's perfect, and perfection can't accept imperfection.
SPEAKER_03He's exactly right. But I think it's important we we definitely maintain our understanding of the character of God, that he is not delighting in the death of the wicked, but hell is a reality of the just punishment for sin.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I also think, you know, obviously you I think he wants us to not end up there. Absolutely. I mean, that's why he tells us to go to Jerusalem, Judea, Samera, into the earth, and teach people, and and he wants to save our lives, he wants us to be with him in the end.
SPEAKER_01Well, ultim ultimately that's why most of our pictures of heaven look like the Garden of Eden, look like the temple, because we were designed for that. Um and so he one of the things that that goes against why so many people even buck the idea of of hell is it's unnatural to us. Like this is not a natural thing to be in torment forever and ever. Our spirits are designed to seek something beyond that. And and so, but the problem is that's the reality, that's the wages, right? That's you know in in the in any kind of a system where there is perfection, it cannot, it cannot be coming come in contact with imperfection, right, or else it becomes imperfect itself.
SPEAKER_03And God doesn't want people to go to hell, that's why he sent his son, number one. And number two, that's why he hasn't sent his son back yet. And that's also biblical. In in 2 Peter 3, verse 9, we're told the Lord is not slow in keeping his promises, some understand slowness. Instead, he's patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. So uh what what I find interesting and it's saddening really is that sometimes people mock Christianity of basically where is the return of Christ? You know, why why he hasn't he come? Why are you putting your hope in somebody who's 2,000 years late? And the whole reason he hasn't come is so that that person who is actually ridiculing and mocking the Lord Jesus Christ, that time is being given so that they might come to their senses and repent of their sin and place their faith in him.
SPEAKER_00And I guess you could pair with that also that we shouldn't want people to end up there. Yeah. Because that that can I can see us maybe some people, I think I've even fallen in the trap of man, these people are so evil and they're doing such terrible things, they deserve hell. Like that's kind of a thought that can be.
SPEAKER_03Here's one thing I would say. I think you bring up a good good point of discussion though, Steven, because I think no, we don't want people to go to hell.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03Yes, we do want God to bring justice to this world. Right. And so there's a line there. It's like half the songs. I think we have to be careful, like when we see people that drive us nuts, you know, and and and honestly, well, I'll just use the word because it's a biblical word, damn. That is a biblical word. And sometimes people use it like they actually mean it, like damn him. Yeah, that's not a good thought. Like you don't you don't want to damn somebody to hell.
SPEAKER_01That is not it also places you in a seat that you don't deserve to be in. It absolutely does.
SPEAKER_03It's wrong. And and usually, truthfully, when people talk that way, it's usually over really, really not that aggressive. Things. Like it's usually they get their feelings hurt. Well, damn him. You know, like that is not the proper usage of that word. Right. Um, but at the same time, I think we we also have to point out that there are vile, wicked, horrible people in this world that do evil and corruptible things. And for us to long for God to bring justice and to bring his wrath down for those people so that they feel the weight of their transgressions, that is actually what the prayers of the saints are in Revelation. And I think that's worth noting that that even when these bulls are coming down, you see it as a response once again, the altar got brought up again. And that's the prayer altar. That you saw it when the first, when the golden censer went down before the trumpet judgments, that that censor was thrown down in response to the prayers of the saints, saying, Lord, bring righteous judgment to this earth, because this is evil, this is horrible. And in the same way, when the bulls are brought, they are coming back because of the altar is brought into the picture again of the the saints are praying, Lord, bring justice to this world. This is horrible. So it's a balance there, Stephen. I guess in other words, where we are on a mission, we want every person to come to know Jesus Christ, and we offer grace. We're in a covenant of grace, but in our hearts, we also pray to the Lord, and I think it's a rightful prayer of Lord, let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, bring justice to this land, uh, and it will come through Christ's return.
SPEAKER_01And I don't think it's without meaning that when we see the times when Jesus gets angry is usually when uh innocents are being either misled, taken advantage of, or just evil being exacted on. Right. Um, and so I don't think in this conversation about hell, I mean, it doesn't mean that we I mean that if we're gonna participate in what Jesus did, we should protect the innocent. We should be a part of that. Now, should we don't we shouldn't take the seat of being the uh the one bringing vengeance, I mean Paul's real clear about that. Right. Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. However, we are called to live out the gospel, and we are called and then to where where things are evil to call them evil to speak truth and to and and that I think that's I think that is where we we pay we place a false dichotomy where it's like look, I know that the so I will be kind of specific, but there there are kids there are kids already, even in late elementary school, who are starting to identify as homosexual. Um and part of that conversation becomes you know, we understand this to be sin. We understand it to be not what God wants for our lives. Love the person, treat, treat them with respect and with dignity, but you will never be forced to accept that that is a truth and and to and to to accept that that's going to be that's that you're going that that is um what God wants for their lives. Um I think we we we miss a little bit when we say, well, the only way to love something is to accept it. Um the Bible never says that. I mean, God absolutely loves everybody and He absolutely does not accept that we have sin in our lives. And so we we have to get to a place where we can both love and reject love I hate that cliche, love the sinner, hate the sin. Yeah. But that's kind of what it is. It's be truthful and be so self-sacrificiing, self-sacrificial in your love. Um but yeah, it's a it's a hard place to be. Um anyway, uh I agree. I think that's a large part.
SPEAKER_03Accept all. Yeah. Like you accept everyone in the sense of everyone is welcomed to God through Jesus Christ, so everybody should be welcomed by us, but not everybody should be affirmed by us. And that's that's really I think what we have to be clear on of God's call on people for salvation. He accepts people to come as they are, he does not accept them to stay as they are, he he changes them.
SPEAKER_01So in the midst of this passage, we see something very interesting on verse 12, because we've been hearing all these angels coming flying across, talking about wrath, talking about all of that. And then all of a sudden we see in verses 12 and 13 something we've seen elsewhere where it said where uh John says, Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I think it's interesting that even in the midst of these visions, you have these interruptions where John comes in and says, Hey, this is a call for endurance. And it it one of the things that it helps me recognize is that response is necessary in the midst of revelation. Uh, I think in our lives, we we tend to look at revelation, we tend to look at our lives and say, you know what, I can't respond to this message until it's all the way over. Yeah. Um so you know, as an example of this, uh, so as a student minister, we we would go often to uh student life camp at Orange Beach, and there um one of the um main speakers that we would try to go here was Ed Newton. Um and so let this be a plug for Ed Newton, his church, community Bible church, San Antonio. Hey, Ed, if you want to send any money this way, that's not perfectly but anyway, uh but what one of the things I loved about Ed Newton is the fact that he is radically evangelistic in the way that he preaches. And and uh and so you know, as in a as opposed to an environment where a lot of youth speakers have gotten to the point where they won't do an invitation to receive the gospel, he is very much there. Um and the way that I saw this the most was one time we were in the middle of a camp. It was probably night number three. And so if you've ever been to a youth camp, you know it's the series of messages, and you generally in the camp have the buildup to the big last night, and there's gonna be a big shebang, and everybody's gonna come to Jesus and it's gonna be all this great thing. Well, we're we're in the toward the end of the worship session on night three, and Ed comes up to the stage and before before preaching and says, Look, I've been we've been preaching the gospel here over these last several nights. You have been singing and interacting and and responding to the message in worship, and I don't feel like I need to wait until the end of this service to do an evangelistic response that if God is moving in your heart right now and you want to accept Jesus as your Christ, your savior and Lord, or you feel called into ministry or called to confession, there's no reason to wait on this. If you know it in your heart, do it now. And that was the first time I'd ever, ever seen that done. Um I think we have this kind of we have this kind of holdback of, well, you know, we got to cut emotion out of the equation, right? Um But Revelation is an emotional text, right? And and so, I mean, Jonathan, with that, I mean, do you think do you see this happen in people's lives where they where they know there's a decision they ought to make, but they hold off because they want to get the rest of the story?
SPEAKER_03Um, yeah. I mean, sometimes it's because they want the rest of the story. I think usually what holds people off though is uh probably the assumption that there'll be another day. Yeah, I think I think that's the biggest issue. I think it's a lack of urgency, um, especially when it comes to spiritual things. I think we focus on material things, the physical things in this world. So I think I think the spiritual decision sometimes just gets pushed to the back burner for people. Uh they don't prioritize it, and usually it's because we're young, we we're invincible, we have thoughts of all these other things we gotta do, and focusing on the inner being and the eternal realities uh doesn't come to the forefront. Um but in that passage, the call for endurance, I think you're you're right, that's a a a great call, and he's calling them to endure. But what I think is also interesting in that verse is the reason why he calls them to endure is in verse 13, he said, Blessed are the dead. Yeah, blessed are the dead who die in the Lord. Right. And he says, And now they receive rest. Um and so what what I didn't get to preach on this, but that verse there, that's actually what some people call as the second of uh multiple beatitudes in the book of Revelation. First one came in Revelation chapter one saying, Blessed are those who preach, hear, and keep the words of the book of Revelation. But this is the second one, and he says, Blessed, it's the same word as Jesus says in the Beatitudes, Makarios. Uh, blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on. And he says, uh, blessed indeed says the spirit, that they may have rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them. So the idea being that when you die, you find rest in the Lord, and and Jesus is our rest, and that rest comes, and that's why he's calling them to decision that even though you're going through hell on earth, heaven's waiting for you. Right. Uh and he says, Blessed will are those who find rest. But also it's worth noting that those who don't make the decision, who refuse that call, they don't find rest. In verse 11, it said, and the smoke of their torment goes up forever, ever, and they have no rest. So really that's what you see. It comes back to the call, like you said. Um, when you respond to the call, you find rest. You find rest today and you find rest eternally. When you put off the call and you don't answer it, uh, you fail to find that rest today, and you really will not find it for eternity. Instead, you find torment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think we we cut short the fact that eternity goes both ways, right? Like that that it's not a it's not a just future kind of thing, that eternity starts now. I mean, and that it is this eternal present. Uh, and so I mean it it the the I think what this does in Revelation itself, the whole thing is a call to get it get it right. You know, you know, and here's even to the extent that the grace we're getting to see, this is what's gonna happen. Don't and you know, I think one thing we also need to make sure that we understand is you don't need to respond because of all the bad stuff that's coming. Um or well, let me say it this way. Uh I think people sometimes look at the book of Revelation and it's like the the reason I need to respond is so that I don't go through bad stuff. You know, the reality is that's not a that's as we talked about with the wrath, it's not a variable, it's gonna happen. And it is happening already, and we see shadows of hell on earth now. And so there's no reason to wait. And as is most of the time, most of the time, you know, I'll I will advise people be patient, be thoughtful, think through things, and and obviously think through your salvation, know why you're doing it, but there is no righteousness in procrastinating. Yeah, I mean, there's just not. I mean, if anything, it's opposed to what the gospel is that uh that puts us in the the situation like the rich young ruler who because he loved his stuff too much couldn't follow Jesus. I mean, because I I think that's always the most interesting thing about the way that Jesus called people. He didn't say, Hey, I'm here, come on, let's I'm gonna have you go into a catechesis, and then you're gonna go through an eight-week study, and then you'll be ready to be my disciple. He says, Follow me. Yeah, look, come on, let's go. And I mean I mean that and that really is the the essence of what God is calling us to do is to be trusting, to follow, not to just not to sit around and wait till we've gathered all the data and we have all the points together.
SPEAKER_03He wants surrender, which is why it's hard for us because we want control. And then we control the narrative if we go on our journey and we go study for as long as we want and read all these books, but not actually have to give anything, not have to surrender. Um, but that's the point. Jesus demands the one thing that we don't want to offer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, and here let's talk a little bit about uh uh Babylon, because Babylon is a character that's gonna come up in multiple places and st and stages here in the book. Um and so one of the places we see it first is there in verse eight of chapter 14, talking about fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great. And so with the appearance of Babylon here in Revelation, does this should we have the expectation that the Baghdad area will be the source and set and center of the rise of Antichrist?
SPEAKER_03I don't think necessarily. I think I think Babylon, there's a lot of people that have different opinions on that. One, I think Babylon is not just a city, it's really symbolic of the entire movement of the spirit of people that are opposing God and worshiping the beast and those that stand obstinately against the Lord, those who take the mark, those who follow the ways of this world and say no to the offer of repentance and faith during that time of tribulation. So because of that, it will be this large. I do believe it's gonna be a large empire. It's gonna go all across the globe. There's those ten horns for the ten kings and Daniel, as well as we talked about that with the beast and the dragon. There's a lot of evidence to point towards this being huge, being a large empire. So as far as the geography of a site location, people are we talked about this a few episodes ago. People are always fascinated by Rome. A lot of people compare it to that. So a lot of people also wonder well, if then somewhere in the region of Rome, of the Roman Empire that was, and and Rome even to this day, uh, would that be a location for that antichrist perhaps to rise up into leadership? We don't know. At the end of the day, we don't know. Like we just don't know.
SPEAKER_01If you've seen Italian politics, maybe not.
SPEAKER_03We just don't we don't know where he's gonna come from. In Baghdad, I don't I don't necessarily think there's any reason to think that's the it place in in Iraq.
SPEAKER_01Um But some but some people have identified it as such, especially with the Iraq War from the United States.
SPEAKER_03But this is a good just rabbit trail to go on because anytime anything happens in the Middle East, the the codes will come out, you know, the code breakers, people, people will start trying to crack the code. And truthfully, even one reason why I got us into the book of Revelation was coming after the declaration of war in Israel in October. I was probably gonna go through another book of the Bible in the new year, but I knew this is already so much on our mind in a post-pandemic world. Uh people panicked then, people are panicking right now with with issues going on in the Middle East. And when those things happen, yeah, it should call our attention to scripture. But I think we have to be careful not to be a prisoner of the moment and then try to over-speculate on some of these things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and so in that, I mean, you made the statement of this worldwide empire, this large city thing. And and something that that springs to my mind, reading this throughout scripture, but uh is there something important to connection of gathering of large groups of people leaning toward perfectionism and the rapid urbanizing of humanity? So I mean, all right, so that's a that's a lot of a lot of big there. But uh let me let me let me boil it down to this. Right now, 56% of the world population is currently abiding in cities. And the World Bank says that by 2050, 70% of the population will be located in cities. And every time we see the Antichrist rise, or there, or realistically, this idea of Rome, of Babylon, there is and and the uh Tower of Babel, as we as we talked about on Sunday, there is it is uh at least emblemized or symptomatic of all of these people coming together. Uh and so, Jonathan, what are we to make of that? Like, I mean is it evil to live in the city?
SPEAKER_03You know, I don't think it's evil to live in the city, but I think it's it's wise to open our eyes to the reality that everything is starting to build towards this moment. Like whether we're in that moment right now and it's gonna happen in the next few years or tomorrow, I don't know. But but but is there writing on the wall right now, like you're saying, of big government, of things coming together, the world is becoming smaller, more connected. Uh is it hard to believe that there could be an advancement in these areas where ultimately alliance between different groups, uh, especially in a moment of worldwide tribulation where everything is falling apart and they they identify a common enemy as well amidst all that. It it yeah, it's very believable. I mean, I think I think the cities and the urbanization of the world, I think it's all just uh foreshadowing. I think that's where we're at right now.
SPEAKER_01Well, I do think it's interesting when you consider how Christianity actually spread in the in the ancient Roman Empire, it wasn't through the country, it was through the cities. And it was in when you look at what is the church, yeah, it's the gathering of people. And so I think one of the things that that bears understanding here is that we talk we've talked about this over and over again. Satan is a counterfeit, right? He sees what God did with the church, and he says, I'm gonna do the same thing, but I'm gonna gather them around secular means. And so really the the idea of people gathering together is not evil.
SPEAKER_03What becomes evil is when that gathering of people starts to worship themselves, and to that point, if if you look at the secularization of cities across our country and the world, it's 100% abundant that that's true. Um, the more uh the more urban the environment, the the bigger the metropolitan area, uh there seems to be quite the correlation to also a diminishing uh uh faction of a traditional biblical worldview that it's it's being dismantled. And usually it's being dismantled uh intentionally and systematically through education, through thought leaders, through business, uh as they adopt uh ultimately progressive policies, protocols, and laws that undermine God and his word. And and and so yeah, I mean I think you're right. I think the spreading around our world of of this uh anti-God uh in the name of progress movement, yeah, I think I think there's quite the connection into the cities and what's going on.
SPEAKER_01And I want to give a real life example here. So, you know, we talk about the fact that things that happened in the past are shadows of what are to come. Uh, if you go to Warsaw in Poland today, there is a massive structure there called the Palace of Art and Culture. There's a similar one in Moscow. It's like a cookie cutter kind of thing. And what the Soviets would do was in order to help cow the population, they would build these massive monumental buildings that were designed to overshadow everyone there. Because the idea was you don't belong to yourself, you belong to the state. Uh and so you have, to me, that is that picture of what we're looking at here of it's not really the gathering of people in the city, it's the worship of the buildings, it's the worship of the things that we can do together. And now, now if you go to Warsaw, they hate the thing. It's so it's huge, it's ugly, it's right in the middle of their city, but it's a monument to how human perfectionism and sin ruined their country. Yeah. And it should serve as a warning to us that you know back in the 70s, I'm sure that felt like a great idea to build this massive monument to humanity in the middle of the city, and now it's a scar upon that city's.
SPEAKER_03Well, and now in the 21st century, I would argue too, cities don't just build buildings, they build institutions. And so now cities are the power brokers of schools, of education, of media. They're the power brokers of politics and government and and and thought leaders. And so when all of those forces, those institutions that are built up in cities, oppose God and His purposes and His Word, yeah, of course it makes sense that you see across our globe uh ultimately a dismantling of Christian ethics and and the in the biblical worldview.
SPEAKER_01Well, and even it's on an election year, gotta go, it's gonna happen again where there's gonna be a push to abandon the electoral college because what people will say is there are more people that live in these city centers, all these city centers vote one way, then that person should be the president. Basically saying that those who live in the country don't count in the in the rural population. Um and the it again it's symptomatic of this. It's well, the right is where more people come together and agree on something, right? And versus what is your what is your personal conviction of who you should vote for president or whatever. Um, you know, whether you're liberal or conservative, you know, you should be against the taking away of votes from people. Like that's a bad idea. Um, and so for the for these people to go and say, well, the cities count more than the country, that I don't know. That that doesn't sit well with me for sure.
SPEAKER_03Well, because basically they're saying they're dumber. And and and they're and they're saying they're dumber because they haven't had these institutions, like I just mentioned schools, education, media, politics, government, thought leaders. They haven't been shaped by the world's greatest leaders, and I would argue they haven't been corrupted by them lots of times. Like they haven't been corrupted by anti-biblical ethics and teaching uh under the name, under the guidance of progress. And so, yeah, like I think all this stuff that's happening, I guess, in modern day, I think it's all just birth pains, it's all just pictures of how all this is gonna happen one day. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and so kind of moving on because we're a little bit limited on time today. Um, why does wrath appear as bowls and cups? So, I mean, we we we we made the statement earlier, we talked about you know wine as the as both the wrath and the celebration. But here in verse in chapters 15 and 16, we start seeing the actual enacting of God's wrath on the earth, and it appears as bowls being poured out. So, so why a bowl and not a I don't know, a text message or uh or hammers? Why is why is God not just throwing hammers at the earth? Like why why bowls?
SPEAKER_03The bowl is symbolic and it's showing basically completion that it's being poured out. So all the previous waves of judgments with the seals and the trumpets, God's wrath has been progressively poured out. His judgment has been coming on this earth, but it has not been poured out in its fullness. Like the trumpets would sound, and if you remember, when we went through those uh trumpet judgments in chapters eight and nine, it was always this one-third, one-third, one-third of the devastation. When the bowl is poured out, there's not a drop left. And so the idea being that that now this is bringing to completion. This is this is all of the wrath. There's nothing being withheld, it's being poured until it's emptied. So uh a cup or a bowl in that sense, it it's a great symbol for that because it it gives the picture of completion. That there's nothing left in the tank, it is now empty and it's all been poured out.
SPEAKER_01And we see and you see this uh reflected throughout the Old Testament and even in pagan cultures where there's a thing called the drink sacrifice, where there is either water or wine poured out. It is symbolic of not leaving anything behind. And so you you know, as the same thing that says it is finished, this is what is part of that. Um we also see an interesting symbol reappear in uh chapter 15, verse 2, that uh that shows up in other places in the Bible, but in a different way. So we have this idea of the sea of glass. Um I mean it appears in Ezekiel, I believe it appears in Isaiah. Um it appears at the beginning of the book of Revelation, but it's always uh described as a sea of glass, smooth, blue, crystal clear, you know, all that. But then down here it says, and I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire. So why is it starting to look different at this point from from because I mean typically sea of glass you see it in context of the heavenly throne room. It's right, it's there. Um so why is it different here?
SPEAKER_03Well, the sea of glass, it was brought, it was introduced in the book of Revelation in chapter four when we were in the throne room of God, and there was that sea of glass of crystal in front of the throne, communicating God's order, there's no problems before him, things are smooth as glass. He's got this plan, and even the plan that now we're seeing being rolled out deep into Revelation, it shows order before the Lord, that that all things are smooth, he has no adversaries, he has nobody who can compete against him. Um, but then what you see here is the glass is mixed with fire, which is bringing this idea of wrath, that wrath is now coming from the Lord through these chapters of chapters 15 and 16, and additionally as we get in 17 and 18 and beyond, but but you see the the wrath of God's going to be poured out through these bowls. So it's it's priming the pump, I guess, imagery-wise, I would argue that it's showing that this is the same God, but now there's wrath that's coming directly from him. This isn't coming from his angels, it's coming from him.
SPEAKER_01And it's not separate from his being, it's part of who he is. And then it also bears bears noting here. I don't know there's much discussion for it, but it does start talking about the people with harps of God in their hands. And um, if you've ever wondered why it why are all our pictures of heaven angels sitting on clouds playing harps, because they start talking about harps here.
SPEAKER_03So some denominations will be really upset to be handed an instrument in heaven. But that's gonna happen one day.
SPEAKER_01I think I think some people who don't like singing in church are gonna be pretty upset when they're saying have to play an instrument like Baptist with his arms crossed, staring at the stage. I love the far side cartoon though, that where they have two pictures side by side, and one's angels going into heaven and goes, Welcome to heaven, here's your harp, and then on the other side it says, Welcome to hell, here's your accordion. I do think, I mean, it bear it bears noting that we don't ever hear the idea of music as reflected in hell. And that we do we do see it everywhere in hell. And so I I think that you know, even for those of you who aren't, quote, musical type people, let's be realistic. Music is is the language of your soul. And like it I mean, when you're angry, you're gonna play heavy metal music in the car or rap or whatever. When you're feeling good, you're gonna play the doobie brothers or whatever. I mean, music expresses something that's more than what language can can just express on its own. And so I think that we need to remember when we're worshiping in church that where it wherever there's heaven, there's music, wherever there's hell, there it ain't music. Yeah. And so this is a bad thought, but uh, you know, uh, maybe maybe hell is like William Shatner's spoken word albums, you know. If you've if you've ever heard William Shatner anyway, okay, never mind. Okay, I'm dating I'm dating myself there. This is like in the 80s.
SPEAKER_03I made the joke yesterday because it said that the 144,000 start singing a new song that came from heaven, and it came from my mind yesterday that they're singing a new song, and that new song came directly from heaven. And I thought once again that was evidence that some new songs come from heaven, actually, and not all new songs come from hell. So there actually are some new songs.
SPEAKER_01Can't you imagine Gabriel is like this eternal DJ of hey there, happy people. This is K Jazz playing jazz from heaven today.
SPEAKER_03I know, and 144,000 sang it with gladness. They liked old songs too, but they sang a new song as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. All right. So we go we go on in to um to the bowls of wrath that get start getting poured out. And I mean the the the I mean it's happening. Like it this is this is really bad stuff, and most of reality as it seems to be known at this point is is like going away. Um I mean, there is a question that came to my mind here, because that toward the end, I think it is, where uh let's see. Yeah, in uh chapter 16, verse 20, and every island fled away and no mountains were to be found. So so what's happening? I mean, if we're if we're talking about the physical reality, which still exists at this point, our Armageddon has not happened yet. There apparently the sun has exploded. Uh I mean, because that's one of the uh what number was that? Number four. Um what's going on here? How how can there be a physical how are we still in physical reality if all the islands and mountains are all of a sudden gone? Like, I mean, what what what's happening here?
SPEAKER_03It's hard for us to really explain it. I mean, you we could speculate, and there's a lot of scientists that would try, you know, to try to put some uh words to this. I'm not a scientist. I do know God made all things and he can unmake all things as he pleases. He can he can destroy things. And so uh what you do see is a great earthquake that's the catalyst of a lot of this. And this great earthquake, when it says it's great in the book of Revelation, that's saying something because we've seen already a lot of great earthquakes over the course of the study that have done incredible, just you know, almost incomprehensible things. But this one is of another level where it happens in the great city, and like you said, we're told mountains are gonna start to be flattened, islands are gonna disappear under the ocean. Um, so you know it's it's it's it's hard to put words to it. I I I don't know if I'm the right guy to answer of like, how's that possible, other than what Gabriel actually told Mary, that with God all things are possible. And so God ultimately, I do believe, is gonna rattle this earth just like he rattled the earth when Jesus was crucified, he'll rattle the earth even greater in this moment of wrath and and wild things are gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so the trumpets wind up being a shadow of what's gonna happen with the bulls at this point. And um, I do think it's interesting that when we were talking a minute ago about the the nature of cities being like the height of humanity and perfectionism, what is the number one enemy of a city is an earthquake. Everything that a person builds, and when an earthquake hits, it destroys like everything is hit, kicked off kilter to the best of our ability. I mean, even look at the cities in California. Like they're they're built to try to withstand those things, but it doesn't matter. Like I mean, it when an earthquake hits, everything changes. And so you even see a direct striking out at the nature of this huge city. It's like, you know, you guys built your best, ain't gonna do ain't gonna do much.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think it's also worth noting that that as God is is uh dismantling his creation, he's also preparing for the new creation. And I think I think that has to be noted here too, that yes, this is God's wrath being poured out on this earth, but it's his wrath being poured out on the creation. The whole creation is corrupted because of sin. And so consequently, he is tearing it apart. It is demo day, if you will. And he is taking it down to the studs before he brings the new heavens and the new earth and he begins it all over again.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I believe it was Jesus who said the first time this ended with water, and the next time it'll end with fire. Yeah. I mean, that's uh that's what you're seeing here is the the sun blows up, the everything gets dark. I mean, you could you could even look at these ideas of the mountains going away, of volcanoes exploding all over the place. I mean, there's something tectonic happening here.
SPEAKER_03Which I think also is a good reminder for us. I know we'll get more into this when we get in the new heavens and new earth, but when we see this stuff, sometimes you could read this and you almost feel a little saddened, like, oh, but the earth's nice, you know, like the sun's beautiful, like the mountains. We love see we pay money to go see mountains. Yeah, we vacation in these places, and what God says is I'm done with that. Yeah, I'm gonna tear that thing apart and flatten it. Uh, which some of us we could be almost, in a sense, grieving that of like, oh no, what about the Rockies? We love seeing the Rockies, but it also shows you really what is to come must be so much greater. Yeah, it lets your mind start to imagine if God's saying no, that's that's the corrupted junk I gotta destroy, so I have room to start something brand new.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's like us holding on to a uh McDonald's toy when God has something like toys are us, you know, exactly something that is the real deal. Um and so I mean I I do think there there's some some big things to that. Um one other thing that I want to bring up, and because we are starting to get toward the end of this, um it is interesting to me that these people aren't dead. Like I mean, you look at the things that are happening to them. I mean, this looks like a straight up zombie movie. If you if you've ever um seen any of the the zombie stuff out there, the the idea and you even reference this of like flesh rotting on their bones and things like that. Um how are they not dead at this point if the sun has exploded, scorched them, it's all dark, there there is no more fresh water because it's all been turned to blood. I mean, right how is this possible that they're still alive?
SPEAKER_03A lot of them are dead. I guess I will preface it by saying that a lot are dead. I think I think that's a humble just acknowledgement we have to make is that this will be a time of grief. A lot of people will be dying. Um, but not all will be dead. To me, the the craziest picture is that battle of Armageddon that is is spoken about there in the 16th chapter, but we actually see it come to fruition in the 19th chapter. But that battle of Armageddon, which will happen after Christ returns. So after these bowls are all done, Jesus will return, and then there's this battle. And in that battle, we're told the nations will pour into that valley and the blood will be four feet high up to the horse's bridle. So there's still gonna be many people at that point still on this earth that will then die uh in that battle uh in the valley of Armageddon. Then Christ will establish a kingdom, and we're told there's still gonna be people on this earth, and then there'll be one more battle when he unbinds Satan and destroys him, and then you have the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20. So all that being said, of how are they alive? Many will be dead, undoubtedly, but some are alive, and I and I don't think there's any other explanation other than it's just providential from God. Like the it's the story's not over yet. Yeah, and so I guess with that, some will be preserved until the story is at its point of completion, which really is Revelation 21 and 22, and the new heavens and new earth.
SPEAKER_01Well, and the same thing's happening in hell too. I mean, where you have constant destruction, pain, and torment, and that and the thing doesn't go away. I mean, it's it's it's against our ph physical understanding of the universe, but it's happened, it's the burning the burning bush, it's the nature of hell, that's both darkness and flames and um all sorts of not good stuff.
SPEAKER_03Well, and Job says that that God gives and he takes away. So it's just a good reminder that ultimately God is the one who takes life. He gives life, he gives new life, but he also takes life. And so for some, their lives will not be taken until the appointed time.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I do think there's also uh a note here that we can we can have, especially as far as what human beings worship, you know, as as I look out in culture, as but at least in American culture, there is a tremendous fear of death. Yeah, I mean that I mean if you talk about a cult about what does our culture worship, it worships youth, it worships health, it worships vivaciousness to where you have these, you know, what was it? Deni Robert De Niro had a kid the other day and he's like 78 years old. It's like, ugh. And even to the extent that zombies are a whole thing of of horror movies and things like that, um, there is an innate fear in humanity of dying. There's also an innate compulsion of I have to live forever. And but then on part of that, we recognize that it is vastly unhealthy to live forever. And so, I mean, I I do think what we're seeing here with these people who are, even though everything is getting poured out on them and they should be dead and they're not, the fact honestly, the fact that they're not dead causes them to curse God. And so this should speak to to our fear, and it also should speak to our our understanding of reality. It's that you know, for those of us who are in Christ, death is something that, yeah, I mean, it's not necessarily something we shouldn't go out seeking it, yeah. But ultimately, it's not the biggest threat to our to us. I mean, w those of us who are in Christ, it's it's just a stage. Right. It's it's moving on from uh like as Paul said it to live as Christ and to die as gain.
SPEAKER_03Well, and there's still and it's a balance with death for the believer, because also Paul says in First Corinthians chapter 15 that the last enemy to be defeated will be death. So death still exists, but its sting has been removed. And so death still hurts in the sense of we physically decay, we go through pain, we do pass from this life to another. So I think for the believer, you know, we're called not to fear death, but at the same time, we sometimes still fear dying because that's a process, and that is our bodies decaying, the physical pain, but the comfort comes through having Christ with us as we are dying, which by the way, we're all dying. I'll also say that I am dying right now, so is whoever's listening to this. We are one day closer, whatever that day is. Uh, but with that, it's having the presence of Christ with us as we go from one life into another. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So with that, I mean we're gonna go ahead and shut down the podcast for today. Um, Jonathan, next week, what are we gonna be doing?
SPEAKER_03So we'll get into chapters 17 and 18. You can read ahead. We will be looking more at Babylon and the Great Prostitute. So uh it will be the third lady of the book of Revelation. So get excited about that. We've got we've already covered Jezebel. Uh, and and and now we're moving on to the Great Prostitute. Uh and so just uh buckle up, read the read Revelation 17 and 18. We will have a lot of things to explain next week.
SPEAKER_01I think they missed that Veggie Tales episode, Jonathan. You know, when when they talk about the great prostitute. Yeah. And also on the Veggie Tales note, it means a whole different thing when you talk about the uh great press. That'd be a lot more of a.
SPEAKER_03I'll tell you the good news though is listener, if you hang with us, it will shift from the great prostitute next week to then the bride of the lamb. And the bride of the lamb is where things start to get a little sweeter, but but we do have one more week of some tough sledding. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you for joining us today. We hope that you continue to discover, to explore the book of Revelation, and we'll look forward to seeing you next time on the Revelations Director Cut on the Citizens ATX podcast.