Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Revelation_Directors Cut: Babylon's Fall
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We have all heard the old adage, "The Pride Comes Before the Fall". This all the more true in the context of Babylon and the end times. Join Matt, Jonathan, and Stephen as they discuss "Babylon's Fall" in Revelation 17&18.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillum, and we are glad you are joining us today on the Revelation Director's Cut series as we walk alongside the sermon series happening at Austin Baptist Church and diving deeper into what we read in the book of Revelation. So today with me in the studio, we have Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Howdy, Matthew. And then also with us as always, Stephen Baughan. Hello, Stephen. Hello. And so today, Jonathan, I want to start off with a very, you know, simple question. Um, one that, you know, inquiring minds are ready to hear. Have you ever had to say the word prostitute that many times in a sermon before?
SPEAKER_02Thankfully, no. Yeah. And I hope I don't have to circle back to it for quite a while.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So for those of you who missed the sermon on chapters 17 and 18, I think you probably had to say the word prostitute at least 50 times or so the youth minister and me is rolling around on the floor laughing as we're doing. But obviously, dealing with the with the content of this, we can tend to get carried away a little bit with the uh the pictures that are given us from scripture. Um, but you know, as we were going through this, yeah, I know that we took a lot of time looking at all these symbols. And so one of the first ones I wanted to chat about here um was the woman that we're introduced to here in in chapter 17. So earlier in the book of Revelation, as you made mention of in the sermon, we've been introduced to two other women. One uh is the uh uh stereotypical Jezebel from um Church of Thy Tyra. Thyro Tyra. Yeah. I was thinking Church of the Thyroid, whenever I think of that. Wow. Wow. Um but then the second one was the woman who woman in the dragon and this kind of battle that's going on between them and uh her being flown out into the wilderness. And so then when we hit chapter 17, uh you have this kind of interesting thing where it says that John is pulled by the spirit, kind of like we see in the book of Ezekiel, uh, removed from where he was before that, observing all the bulls, so all of a sudden he's drawn to the wilderness, and here we are presented with another woman, or is it the same woman? So uh you have this picture of a woman out in the wilderness. So how are we to know that these are not the same character if it's a similar setting to what happened earlier?
SPEAKER_02Well, the main reason is because you know this woman is different because she's identified by John. You know, the the angel tells John in verse 5 that it's Babylon the Great, that there's a name on the forehead. So we know this is distinguishably different. This is a different woman. Uh, it also says that John's the one that's carried away in the spirit into the wilderness. And so the woman is chasing and pursuing the woman, or excuse me, the dragon is pursuing that woman and chasing her into the wilderness. Here you have uh John being taken there to be given a a vision of of something else. And so that wilderness in chapter uh twelve is a place of protection where the woman is being protected. Uh the wilderness in this context is really more of a place of revelation, you know, for for John, where he's being taken out there to see this woman and to hear really a new, a new perspective, a new, a new character, if you will, that's in this story.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you see a couple of more things that are of that that counterfeit that are there, right? So, you know, you have the counterfeit of the woman that and that's coming out of the wilderness. Uh, but you also then it makes a statement that she's uh seated on many waters, which you know you talk you spoke about in the sermon as relating to, I think, verse 15. Yeah. But I it it does strike me a little bit that as we've as we're talking about um the idea of counter counterfeit as an interpretive key in the book of Revelation, that we see her sitting on many waters as opposed to the sea of glass that we see in the throne room of God. So you again have this fake version of what God really intends, but that serves the the Antichrist, the beast, and then the woman sitting upon it.
SPEAKER_02And I'll take it even a step uh further. You also contrast in chapter seven where you get to see a picture of those of the vision of heaven, and you see a multitude, we're told, multitudes of people that are all worshiping the Lord. And here you see multitudes, we're told, of people of many la nations and languages that are worshiping the beast. And so they're following him through Babylon the Great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so with that, uh one one question that I want to I want to ask in this, you know, we're talking about Babylon and in the the focus of Babylon is this idea of being drunk drunk on her sexual immorality. And it strikes me, and as I'm considering this, why why is sexual immorality the this supposed height of sinfulness? Like, you know, John had the ability to identify any number of sins to characterize with this woman Babylon, like greed or pride or um uh lying or other or other thing. I mean murder is another one which I mean he he kind of assumes later when he's talking about drinking the blood of the martyrs. But why is sexual immorality placed at the top of that list, do you think?
SPEAKER_02Sexual immoral immorality and I guess just sex, just to just dial in on that, there's there's intimacy that comes with that. I mean, when you're talking about that word, just you know, symbolically, it's a word that that brings to mind this idea of intimacy and and even oneness and closeness. And so uh I think when it's also tied into ultimately a relationship and and uh and so the picture here that's being provided is really one of of uh spiritual infidelity, of of uh neglecting your commitment and your faithfulness and your your commitment to the Lord and pursuing other lovers, if you will, and becoming intimate with other other ones. And in this case, it's the beast, you know, it's the devil, it's the beast, it's it's following the ways of this world, idolatry. Uh and so, you know, that idea of sexuality, it's really not about sex itself, the physical act. I think it's about the the intimacy, the faithfulness, the relationship. Uh, and ultimately God wants us to be faithful to him, to be committed to him, to follow him. And the idea being here that during this tribulation that the multitudes that are being described are going to do the opposite. They're not gonna be faithful to him, and they're gonna go pursue all these other lovers, uh, metaphorically, meaning idols and immorality.
SPEAKER_00One of my favorite lines from a television show has to do with the word lovers where a person says, you know, that word lovers bums me out unless it's between meat and pizza. So that's probably a bad joke, and we may wind up cutting that from the broadcast. But uh, you know, that I do think there is something there as you're speaking about, because the idea of infidelity, especially through sexual means, is throughout the Bible. I mean, if you spend any time in the minor prophets and Hosea and Ezekiel, uh, I mean, just over and over again, that picture is given. I I think you you're correct that this idea of intimacy is is embedded in there. And I think also um sexual immorality is not something that you just stumble into. Like it is something, even when you look in the book of Proverbs and they talk about the the avoiding of sexual immorality, it's something that is a choice, right? And it's I think we need to look at these people who are here that are the multitudes that are worshiping the beast, they're doing it on purpose. Right. Like they have made their choice and they've chosen wrongly, but they've chosen because they're pursuing their own desires, their own lusts. And sexual immorality is the one of the best ways to picture that.
SPEAKER_02And I think also with sexual adultery, when you think of that that idea, you also it communicates uh incredible pain and hurt against it, it communicates betrayal, is what it communicates. And I think it's important also in that imagery that when God is calling out the sexual immorality, speaking metaphorically of people, he's speaking to that idea that he's been hurt and betrayed, you know, that they have turned against him. In the Old Testament, we're told God is a jealous God and he's jealous for his bride, for us as his people, that he wants us to be faithful to him and he's due our faithfulness and allegiance. But when we uh turn against him and we become that harlot that that is being described there in that text, I believe it hurts the heart of God as well that that that we're told he becomes jealous for us and he wants us uh because he's redeemed us and created us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that is on purpose that laying side by side the bri the bride of Christ versus the prostitute. I mean, they are opposites of one another, um, of one holding itself back for the honor of the other and the other selling that um and for a price. So um as we're moving on and talking about this beast itself, there's an interesting uh comment there that's made of that the beast was and is not. Um, and I don't think I think that that yeah, and and is to come. So there's a the third part of that. And so what is the deal with that statement? What does that even mean? As we're I mean, because it would seem to be an in uh incomprehensible statement.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it comes up first in verse eight of chapter 17. It says that he was and is not, and he's about to rise from the bottomless pit, and then it comes up again later in that chapter. The idea being that I believe interpretively, it's pointing towards this idea of a fake resurrection of the Antichrist. This was alluded to actually in chapter 13 when the focus was on the beast. There was this idea that he was going to have the appearance of being slain. He was gonna have a mortal wound, we were told, in in chapter 13, and it's a counterfeit to Christ and him, the Lamb of God, being uh having the appearance of being slain in Revelation chapter 5. And so the idea being, I believe, in verse 8 of chapter 17 is just expounding on that point from chapter 13 that the Antichrist, he will be around, that he will not, you know, seemingly dead, and then he will rise up again. And I think it all points back to the same thing that this will be an ultimate act of deception by the beast to try to deceive the nations to not just follow him, but ultimately now worship him, and and that he would then take that seat uh on that temple and be worshipped and demand their worship uh in order for them to live.
SPEAKER_00Well, so and you and kind of in in keeping with the beginning of this chapter, you still see you see this um this whole vision as a uh interlude into the timeline of what's happening. Yeah. Um because I mean, you you know, it that it can be confusing when you're reading Revelation all the way through where you seem seemingly have these overlays of, well, I thought the I thought the thing already came up out of the sea. Now it's in the desert and a lady's writing on it, and it's like, what what so I mean I think we need to make sure that we're seeing this as an in divided out picture of overall concept for and and the and God's purpose in this is for us to understand what is it that we're actually dealing with. Right. Maybe not necessarily this is not so much concerned with the timeline as it is with the quality and the character of the right.
SPEAKER_02And you we have to get in that our heads that, in my opinion, there's most, not most, much of revelation are these breaks, these interludes that will throw you off because the basic chronology is the seals, the trumpets, and the bulls. But you have interludes there in chapter seven, between the sixth and seventh seal, the hundred and forty-four thousand comes out of nowhere. Then you have another interlude that then comes uh in chapter 10 and 11 when the focus comes on the little scroll and the two witnesses that comes between the sixth and seventh trumpet. Then you have a third interlude, which we already talked about there with the dragon and the beast in chapter 12 and 13 and the 14 with the three angels. That's all one interlude. And then you finally get the bowls that then come, which we covered that last week. And then after the bowls, there's this final interlude. Now I will say this is the final one. Uh the interlude extends itself into chapter 19 with the marriage supper. And then at that point, when the marriage supper is done, if you're reading and just trying to make sense of things, it will become more straightforward. I just wanted to assure you, in chapter 19 to 22, because all that will return to basic chronology. But it is important at this point. I know we want to make books simple in our minds of like, well, I just want to read this as a story. We don't have that luxury. And God wrote it this way for this reason. It's to inform us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and to understand, right? It helps us know what we've read about. Sometimes when we read straight through a narrative of something, we don't get a full understanding of who the characters are and what their what their motivations are, and because we tend to get carried away with what's happening next. And you know, I think in the revelation, that was part of what I mean, that's why it's a revelation, particularly it's this un unveiling of the truth of the matter. And so I do think that's a helpful thing for us to understand. Now, an interesting thing in the midst of all this um is a question, again, kind of going back to the timeline, but there is especially in verse 9 of chapter 17, you have this statement of uh seven that the seven heads of the beast are seven mountains on which the woman is seated. Um, and then onward you have more descriptions that would make this seem like it's the historical city of Rome, which for a little bit of context, the city of Rome is set upon seven seven hills, seven mountains. Um and so historically there has been this question of, well, okay, does this mean then that we're dealing with the actual physical chronological city of Rome? Right. And with that is uh the burning of the temple in 70 AD when Rome essentially makes its greatest lashing out at the kingdom of God when they burn the temple to the ground. Is that referenced at all in what we see of the of the beast and the woman in this passage?
SPEAKER_02I think it is a reference to Rome, but it's also getting to a reference to something that will come out from Rome. And and I think it's important to note this you cannot, I believe, fully interpret Revelation without understanding the book of Daniel. Daniel, the the prophecy is littered all throughout this book. And the reason why I say it's both is because when you go back to Daniel 7, there's that fourth beast which represented Rome, but we were told there were these ten horns, which remember that rings a bell here in Revelation, and then there's a little horn that comes out from there screaming these blasphemous names. And ultimately what you see is a precursor, a picture of the Roman Empire, which was the greatest empire ever to come across this globe, and the impact it made, ravaging uh ultimately the Jews and the church when you get into the first century. And then what you see coming from that is a Roman-like empire that that's like it, but greater than it. And so if I were looking back at the text in verse nine, I agree with you. I think that's a direct reference to Rome itself, to the city of Rome. But then it continues in verse 10 to talk about these seven empires, and it says, uh, five of whom have fallen, one is, and the other is yet to come. The five who had fallen are the five historic empires that were enemies to God's people in the Bible within Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, the Greeks, and the one who is, it's Rome. Once again, it's verse nine, it's Rome. And then it says, But there's one more to come, and that is Babylon the Great. That is this new Rome, if you will, that that will come and arise up in these last days.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, and it occurs to me a little bit as we're talking about this, you know, we we've we've spoken before about Rome, the longevity of it, right? Like that you had this kind of um inheritance that's gone on through the centuries of these different empires that would claim to be the next uh incarnation of Rome. And does and this is this is me completely wondering on this, but would it would it would it bear mentioning that perhaps the next that that last empire might have nothing to do with Rome at all? Because I mean you look at these other ones that we've mentioned, ones like Egypt, I mean, it had centuries and centuries of history, was not connected to Rome at all until the very end when Rome conquered it. Um you had the Persians who are completely different, you had the Babylonians who are completely different, the Assyrians who are completely different. And so it makes me wonder that as we're you know looking at these different empires, perhaps it might be something that is outside of the s of the the the sway and name of Rome, but uh which will be reflected in the way that it does things.
SPEAKER_02I think it's possible. I think uh a lot of people have written a lot because there's these ten horns on this empire, and people have uh gone on to speculate what nations those represent potentially, uh alliances, if you will, across Europe and into Asia and all across the globe. Um a lot of people are fixated on that side of the world, but I think what we have to keep in mind is during this time of tribulation, all geopolitics will be completely turned over at this time. I mean, as those sealed judgments are being poured out, and then the trumpets uh and and those things start to happen, the world is literally changing. I mean, if you if you and especially if you track with with what I believe in of a pre-tribulational rapture, you have uh arguably a couple billion Christians leave the earth, you have all these uh cosmic disturbances coming across the globe, a scarcity of resources. I think that this empire, to your point, I think it's more than just Rome. I think yeah, I think you're correct. Now, would that area of the traditional Roman Empire be included? I think, yeah, absolutely. But but could Babylon be further than just that little region, if you will? Absolutely. I think that's the case. I think it's a one-world government and it carries across really the entire globe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it'll probably adopt a lot of the things that that Rome did. I mean, but the other the other side of that is I mean, like the Babylons, the actual Babylons of the world and stuff like that didn't really seem to do that. It would seem to be vice versa, where where you know had you had Rome stealing everybody else's culture, like the Greeks. Um and I mean it also bears noting that like in even in our government in Washington Washington DC, a lot of the architecture is meant to mimic Roman and Greek architecture. So I mean it's it is interesting how that stuff kind of uh uh sews itself through history. Um but with that another question that comes up, we so is you go on and it talks about the uh the the war that's gonna happen. That the uh that the beast and their people are going to make war on the lamb. This is in verse 14 of chapter 17. And the lamb will conquer them, for he is the Lord of Lord and kings of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful. And so, with the lamb being the one who conquers, what role should we as the as believers play in fighting? And in particular, what I'm thinking about is where you have this rise of conspiracy theories and militias that are get that are getting moved toward violence because of the of an idea of protecting the world against this coming antichrist. So, what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think the picture that you're getting right there is alluding to chapter 19, the Armageddon. I think one, it's important to understand well, what's the word of God say there? Because if you're then saying metaphorically, well, I'm now part of God's army today and I'm gonna start advancing this cause right now, it's important for us to look at what is that passage referencing. That passage is referencing Jesus' return and his army that will come with him, that will then conquer the beast, the false prophet, and Babylon at the Battle of Armageddon. So I think it's I think it's important to differentiate those two, in other words. Like if you're saying some people are wanting to fight the the war now, if you will, like is what you're basically saying, yeah. This is a war that's gonna come, and we can't fight that fight. Like this is a fight that is gonna be fought prophetically in the future, and Jesus will bring his army with him, and we're gonna talk about that in Revelation chapter 19. But we're told when he returns, he'll be on that horse, we're told, and he will come as a conquering king with his heavenly army, and there will be this battle there at Armageddon. So I think it's just important, I guess, to pause. Like if you're going that route, if people are interpreting that saying, Well, I'll sign me up now. It's like, well, that's not actually what it's looking for. That's that's not soliciting soldiers right there in that text saying, come and fight for them in that regard.
SPEAKER_00And part of what kind of spurred me on in this is something that I observed in college. So when I when I was in college, the the movie Boondock Saints came out. I don't know if you've ever seen that. I have. And so it it is a incredibly violent movie. I mean, gratuitous violence, is what I would say for that. But there was a culture that was developing at my school where people would watch that movie and then they would say, Hey, I want to do that. I want to be a righteous defender and commit violence against those that commit violence so that I can uh participate in what God's doing and protecting the innocents, even to the extent where they started talking about not necessarily forming little militias, but kind of patrolling parking lots looking for people that were doing wrong things or whatever. And I and it struck me in that, I was like, that doesn't feel right in in the way that they're responding. I mean, it's not. Because it's not. That's why. Yeah, yeah. So, listener, don't go form a militia, please. That's correct. It's a bad idea. But I mean, it is that that thing that kind of can I think can stick out for some of us. We get this itching feeling of, well, I want to go do something to fight these evil forces that are around me. And they make me angry, they make me and so then you you wind up having this reaction that is, well, then I should go commit violence to participate in the violence that I'm seeing here in things like the book of Revelation.
SPEAKER_02Well, there is part of it like in us, we should have an urge to go and push against, push back against the darkness of this world. And when Jesus said in Matthew chapter 16, verse 18 that he'll build his church and he says the gates of hell will not prevail against her, the idea is that we are on the offensive. We're charging, the gates of hell will not stop us, meaning the church is supposed to advance. But the question is, what are we advancing? What's our ministry? We've been given a ministry of reconciliation. We have not been given a ministry of violence, like you're saying. I mean, we have not been given this ministry to go run over our enemies. In fact, in Romans chapter uh 12, verse 20, we're told to the contrary, if your enemy's hungry, feed him. If he's thirsty, give him something to drink, for by doing so, you will you will heap burning coals on his head. So the the exhortation to the believer is different. It's not a militant exhortation that we stand on the truth, but we stand on the truth through grace. And that's the way we we we live we live our lives, and we leave vengeance to the Lord. And what Revelation tells us is he's gonna be pretty good at that. Like he's gonna handle that for us just fine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's uh it's aggressive aggressive kindness, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean that I think you're you're correct on that. Because I mean it it we we try to simplify these things, but ultimately what it does is it winds up uh clothing our intentions with righteousness, even though our intentions really are I just want to hurt somebody. Yeah. And that's why it's so hard for us because we want to revenge ourselves on others. And sometimes when we see injustices, our our desire to revenge ourselves is is is or revenge for somebody else is really just an attempt by that I want to enact my power on the world, I want to enact the violence I have in my heart on somebody else. And it's sometimes
SPEAKER_02Fueled by us wanting to be the savior of the world, like we want to. There's also some pride that can creep into that too when we are on these uh on these uh uh conquering uh conquests, if you will, for for justice. And I think there is a balance there, and the spirit will speak into our hearts because we're also called to pursue justice in this world, right? And we're called to stand on righteousness. So there is a proper way to stand, and there is a proper way to pursue justice, but it's not through, like you're saying, violent attacks. That's not that's not the means by which we're supposed to do that in the public sector.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so keep in moving here. There is another um kind of difficult thing for us to understand there in chapter 17, verse 17, where it's well, actually, I'll go back to uh starting verse 16. And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute, they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh, and God and burn her up with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast until the words of God are fulfilled. So it appears here as I'm reading this, that in this battle between the beasts, this royal power, and then the woman seated upon the beast, that God places the will in their hearts to devour her. So what are we what are we seeing happen here?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think you're seeing a couple, uh multiple things there, because it says that the ten horns, so the kingdoms, this Babylonian Empire, this New Rome, if you will, it says it's gonna turn against the leadership, is what you're seeing, is gonna turn against the people, the prostitute, the the empire itself. So you see that ultimately, uh evil, you can't trust evil leaders, is the moral of that story, that evil turns on evil. And so, so it's much better to find righteous good leaders that that that are actually following God and then fall under their leadership and that that authority. Because what you see all throughout history is exactly that, that evil leaders turn on ultimately they're evil followers, that you cannot trust them. So that will happen in those last days is people will put their trust in these kings, these horns, this empire, the beast himself as the leader. And then when things get dark, that they're going to be betrayed against their by their own leadership. But in verse 17, when it says God put it into their hearts to carry out this purpose by being of one mind and handing over their power, it's talking about how these kings and kingdoms and these people will willfully let go of their control and give it to the beast during this time of tribulation. He will become ultimately not only the religious leader that they are worshiping, but he will be the political economic leader that will then have uh power over trade, over buy and sell, and they will freely give that authority over to him. And what God is saying right here in this text is this is all according to his sovereign plan. And and we see this happen actually in the Old Testament as well, when you see evil empires rise up and and you see them come into power. Like Habakkuk, then Habakkuk is a great example. So when when Habakkuk's crying about the Assyrians that are making Israel miserable, God says, Don't worry, I got this. The Babylonians are coming next. And then they're gonna conquer the Assyrians. And then with Daniel, you get the same thing where he's dealing with the Babylonians. He says, Don't worry, I got the Persians coming next. And then he lets them know the Greeks are gonna be after that, and then the Romans. So you just see the same thing where God is so sovereign that he is able to use even his enemies out there that are warring against him to ultimately fulfill his perfect purposes. And you see that is gonna happen during the tribulation.
SPEAKER_00Well, and that could be hard for us to grasp, I think, sometimes because I mean, if to boil it down to layman terms, it would be like if you had an infestation of rats. And so then God says, Okay, well, I'm gonna solve that by putting a bunch of venomous snakes in your house. And we're saying, well, it's great that it's killing the rats, but now we've got venomous snakes in our house. And so it is, I mean, I do think it it it what it does is it causes us to have to lean on him even more. That, you know, even though I can't see how this is gonna come out right, or I can't reason out how this is gonna come out right, because he's got control of all that, and because he is um sovereign over even our own logic, um, that it causes us to have to trust him. And um, it is amazing to me how often throughout scripture God's means of deliverance don't it it's it's we don't see uh God God do the God helps those who help themselves. Right. Yeah, we see God helps those that he loves, and we have to rely upon that grace.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it should encourage us, I think, also today, because I know we all stress out and worry about our own leaders in America. And and I do believe we have some evil leaders in this country, by the way. I believe there are people that do not love God, they're opposed to him and his will and purposes for this earth, that they have that Babylonian spirit, if you will, uh, of rebellion. But when you read a text like that, it also gives you hope saying, Well, God has used rebellious, horrible leaders all throughout history to actually still accomplish his perfect purposes. He's used them to ultimately advance his story of redemption forward. And and we can trust him in that, that even if we don't like the people in charge and they are quote, bad guys in different times and places, yeah, there's been bad guys all throughout human history, and yet God's uh God's redemptive plan has advanced forward. And it and it's the same thing that regardless of even how the elections go come November, God's gonna advance his uh redemptive plan forward. It's gonna work just fine. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, and as we keep moving in this, um you you kind of you we have a I guess a mission statement, I suppose, uh of of the uh woman Babylon there in uh chapter 18, verse 7, when it says, As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Since in her heart she says, I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see. That's mourning with a you. So grieving, I guess is another way to put that. And so one you know, when I when I see that statement, no and uh mourning or grieving I should never see, um, does this speak into our American forever youth culture? Do you think that there's anything we should glean from that?
SPEAKER_02I I don't know if it's even in the forever youth. Yes. I mean, to answer your question, there there's something there, but I would take it a step further that I think it can advance even into American culture as a whole. Like, I mean, our country's had such great prosperity and blessing from God and really protection, you know, for uh for a couple hundred years here that I think there have been many who have come through this country that become proud because she's proud. That's that's the idea there. She says, I'm untouchable, is what Babylon's saying, that I'm not gonna go through anything hard. I've got everything under control, I've got my resources, I've got everything good, God can't stop me. And and our nation isn't necessarily filled with people that have that obstinate, you know, look at God shaking their fist, saying, I don't need you, I've got this. But we live our lives that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're functional atheism.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, functional, it's functional atheism, exactly. And I think I think our country has a lot of Babylon in it. We just don't want to admit it that that we also think morning, I'll never see. Look at my bank account, look at what I have, look at my 401k, things are great. Uh, I'm not gonna have all these things, I'm gonna sit as a queen or as a king. Because look at my house, look at my look at look at what car I drive, look at my office. And so I I do think that that spirit of pride, which is what's being communicated there, absolutely, you see it at all levels across our country.
SPEAKER_00Well, and it it makes me think too, um, because as we're reading this, I don't know that anybody who is reading this text will say, Hey, I identify with that that whore of Babylon. You know, it's like it's like a it's like a picture of me. I'm riding in on this beast with seven heads. But you know, we we don't like to be associated with the prostitute, but we sure do like her stuff. And um it, I I do think that part of this, part of the reason why God is giving us this picture is you better be sure your life and your heart don't look like this because it's very easy to fall into this kind of structure of I have nothing to mourn about. I have nothing to be upset or nervous or um or um uh worried about. I mean, you think about the uh the the rich merchant uh that Jesus talks about where he says, I I have no worries, no problems. I'm gonna build more barns to uh add up to my, add onto my prosperity. And then it's one of the few places in the scripture where Jesus calls someone a fool, but he says, You fool, you your life will be demanded of you this night. And so I think that you know, in this revelation of the character of this woman, I mean, be careful that you you might not think that we that you personally uh can identify with this this person, but uh look at the things that she does. Look at the things that she loves and the things that characterize who she is, and maybe be sure that you're you're trying to align those parts of your life in more with what Christ has said rather than what she has said. Um, because it seems like there's some danger there.
SPEAKER_02Prosperity is a blessing that comes from God, but it's also something that Satan takes and he uses it to seduce, to go back to the same metaphor. It's it's seductive, it's alluring, it's enticing when you are prosperous in anything you do and you have expansion of resources. The natural inclination of man is to take credit for all of it and to hoard it. And to say, Well, I did this, this is mine, now I have built this protection around me that's financial usually. Uh and the whole point is the Bible tells us you actually hadn't built anything. God built it, number one. And then number two, we're called to give glory to God for it, not glory to ourselves. Um and we should all, I think, heed uh Job's words as opposed to the woman, because Job says he gives and he takes away. Right. Um, where she says, I gave this to myself and he can't take it away. It's mine, and it's the opposite spirit.
SPEAKER_00Um, in reality, you look at this per this person, Babylon, and it's it's really a tragic character, right? I mean, even in a context of somebody who would be reading this that was, you know, incredibly poor, I mean, they would look at this person who's riding on the horse and drinking the cup of wine and having all the jewels, all the stuff, and it becomes a tragedy. And we actually see this happen immediately after this, where you have the kings of the earth, the merchants and the naval people, the people who sail ships, mourning Babylon. And so, I mean, I do think it's interesting that a significant portion of chapter 18 is given to this uh speech and the grieving that happened uh by the by the merchants. And so I guess the question I have, Jonathan, is why why them? Why are they brought out at this point and seemingly uh are these vicarious watchers of what's happening in the scene?
SPEAKER_02Well, because as the empire's falling through and and you're looking at this through these bowls of wrath that are being poured out, and Babylon's now falling, like judgment's coming, this whole chapter is a song of lamentation. You have the merchants who basically, in other words, all the people in the economy who have thrived off this empire that have sold out for the Antichrist and everything's going great for them, and they're doing okay because they've they've sold out. They're saying, uh oh, like now, now how am I supposed to eat? And what's gonna happen to me because now this whole thing's crumbling. Um, so that's what you see is you see the people of Babylon, which really that is what the merchants are. They're the ones that that ultimately are people of this prostitute, because it said she's the great prostitute who gives birth to other prostitutes is how she was described earlier in the text in chapter 17. So you're seeing other prostitutes, if you will, saying, Uh-oh, I'm going down with her right now and and I can't fend for myself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I mean, I think it I think it brings up a very important concept that we, especially going into an election year, need to be aware of, but that all political morality is ultimately economics. Um, so I I learned this in kind of a strange way when I was in seminary because I worked at a a um I'll I won't say what it was, it was a business. Uh, but it was a business that was very intent on telling everybody how green they were. I mean, there were signs everywhere, they made all this big to do, and they didn't they, you know, it was just all it was all over the place. And what the company would have them believe is, well, you know, we do this because we believe in green initiatives and so on and so forth. When I saw the back of the store and the amount of books that they still threw away, you know, it's like what I came to understand is that company was only so green as it was important to their customers that they be green. Yeah. And listener, I hope that you recognize that when it comes to politics, they're gonna have generally, and I I again this is a general generalization. There are, I'm sure there are uh there are people who this doesn't apply to, but I think the general um assessment of this says that the morality that's displayed by your politicians generally is designed for economic use. That if we wanna, and I'm gonna say something a little controversial here, but I think if we want to see why has the political environment turned so positively toward homosexual marriage, um, because the question is, well, why why should they care? Well, I mean what what what benefit is it to the government to step into this? Because it benefits the government to have taxpayers who are double income with no kids. Um and people who are double income no kids spend a lot of money on stuff they don't need. Um and that again, that's the controversial take. But when we see these merchants crying here, they don't they're not crying because they love Babylon, they love the the stuff that it gave them. Right. And oftentimes the way that we run our lives, we don't necessarily love um different things in the world that we see as centers of injustice and things like that, right? But we really like the stuff that we get from it.
SPEAKER_02Well, and what's the thing that politicians love that they get from people is power. Like they they get votes, they get power. And so ultimately to that point, uh, politicians ultimately usually are a reflection of the world because a lot of people look at politicians as, well, you need to lead us morally, ethically, show us, you know, lead us in the right direction. That's not the calling of a politician. Yeah, they want politicians to be pastors, basically, and spiritual leaders.
SPEAKER_00But that's and that's the role they're serving at this point. They're not legislating, they're preaching.
SPEAKER_02But what a politician does instead is he or she reflects the waters, he or she reflects the people. And so they're looking out there of what things matter out there, and then how can I align with that so I can receive power, so I can receive votes. And with power comes money, and ultimately, at the root of all of politics, politics really is ultimately about money, largely. That's what it is, because money then brings power, which brings decisions, which brings all these other things.
SPEAKER_00And I will say that it is I I suppose it is an unfair generalization to say that all of everybody who gets into politics is is that way. And if you're a politician that really is fighting for the right right now and fighting for the the goodness of the gospel, and you know, God bless you, you're in the middle of it.
SPEAKER_02You're outnumbered.
SPEAKER_00You're in a very ugly arena for that. And may God bless you and keep you in the midst of that.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think there are good politicians. Even the Bible communicates that there's good politicians. I mean, that that have come and gone through and done God's work. So I don't I don't mean to characterize it that way, but I do think if we're looking at it as a whole, I think people think too much about politicians and we think they're gonna change and save the world. And really that's why God gave the church was to actually change and save the world, is is really to go reach people with the gospel.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that's a whole other conversation when we get into the role of church and politics and how we should rely on each other. But wait, we'll we'll put that down for another episode. How about that, Stephen? Um, so another thing, let's you know, keep jumping on these controversial issues here, but in verse 13, you see kind of an interesting uh you see an interesting statement put out there when it's talking about the kinds of things that those merchants are weeping about that aren't being bought. And in verse 13, specifically, the last thing in the list, the thing that you would pay the most attention to, and it says, and slaves, that is, human souls. So why is that included here, Jonathan? I don't I don't recall seeing in a lot of other areas that talk about slave trade in the New Testament. I mean, there are some, but why is that specifically included here?
SPEAKER_02I think it just shows you the uh just the moral degradation that's gonna happen in society that that time. Like they're selling all these other things, trading all these things that you would think, and then it's oh yeah, by the way, and people. Like this is this is commonplace that that they're selling people, and we know that people are still sold to this day, but but but you you see it during that time, this is how uh corrupt the world will become, is that it appears that that will become a mainstream thing once again, where right now it's more underground, at least in most advanced modern civilizations. To our to our uh knowledge for the most underground, at least in the sense of it's out of sight, out of mind for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00I was struck whenever a couple years ago, when the Super Bowl came to Dallas, there was a a um a statement that came out that was talking about the fact that wherever the Super Bowl is, sex trafficking increases by like twenty-fold. That's true. Um, you know, in the in the time that this was being this was being revealed and written, you know, in the Roman Empire there were 60 million slaves. So I mean they were dealing with that in a very um open way. But at the same time, where people's mor I do think that there was a design to challenge people's morality in this, that you know, if you have if you benefit from slavery, you need to question, okay, why am I participating in this? And in if we're being honest in the modern day context, the way that works is in sex trafficking, that where people are consumers of pornography, they are directly supporting sex trafficking and human slavery. Yeah. I the the the fact is undeniable that that's how that works. And um again, I think part of the reason this is being shown is is God saying, You think you're so far from this, you're really not. And be careful about the things that you are investing your heart in and what the things that you say that you are moral about or are are governed by, just be sure that you're actually aligning yourself with Christ and not with the this other, the other.
SPEAKER_02And I think it should be stated, uh, just even though this is a rabbit trail, that that the Bible, sometimes people uh weaponize the Bible on the topic of slavery. Yeah, and and they will weaponize the Bible to say that the Bible's for slavery. No, it is not. Uh the Bible's also a historical book that dealt with cultures and slaves. That that was a common practice all throughout history. As you said, it's still a common practice in many places, but it made me think of uh 1 Timothy chapter 1, where slavery comes up, and when slavery comes up in verse 10, it says the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjures, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine. And so when you see slavery put on lists like that, yeah, usually the list that it comes out on in the New Testament usually is with the most deplorable, awful things, and it's not on good lists. Like uh, and and uh and that's why I think you see it here at the worst of times in the book of Revelation, it gets back on the list because you're talking about the darkest times in human history before Jesus returns. Yeah, and what's the issue? Slavery right there. We go right back to it. Um and it just shows the darkness of man with an unregenerate heart, and you are just you've given yourself over to the beast, you do detestable things, and slavery, it seems, will be a common practice at that point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think I think in like the book of Philemon, too, Paul gives a direct thing to the guy, the slave owner, Philemon, where he says, I hope you'll take this guy back, not as a slave, but as a brother. And you don't enslave your brother. Wait, you better not enslave your brother, that'd be a bad thing. But you know, I I think that there is this very strict warning to us of, you know, if we if we ever think that we're that this kind of sin is so far from us, you might need a real reality check of where you are and where you're living. And so to kind of get to the end of this, we we have all of these nations that are then mourning and yeah, the Babylon being thrown down, um, and all the the nations mourning. And so it says, uh how do we see the rule of the beast go over all the nations? So how does this work? That if we if we're getting given a character character study of how of how this beast will uh win the hearts and manipulate the hearts of the nation nations, how do how does that how what does that look like?
SPEAKER_02Well, he initially will manipulate them um through false peace. So he offers false peace, that's Daniel chapter 9, verse 27, false covenant. So he'll be alluring and enticing, offering them hope in a time of turmoil, and he'll be capitalizing at that point as the tribulation's beginning and crazy things are happening. But then he will ultimately uh force them to follow him at that point. He will manipulate them, but then he will reveal who he is, which I believe comes through that fake resurrection, like we already talked about earlier. I think that will be a key moment during his leadership. Is when he was not and then, or he was, then he is not, and then he is again, uh, and then he will force worship. Uh at that point, they will be dependent on him. So he will force them to worship him and follow him, or they will be unable, we're told, to buy or sell. So he uses and abuses them to advance his own kingdom, which is quite the dichotomy I talked about on Sunday when you talk about the bride of Christ, the lamb and the bride, which we'll get into that in the chapter 19. It's a completely different relationship than the beast and the prostitute, because the beast uses the prostitute. That's why that language is also being used, I believe, right there in the text, that a uh a prostitute is not a wife who a husband sacrificially loves and serves. A prostitute gets used. If we're just being honest, that's what a prostitute is.
SPEAKER_00Except except in the book of Hosea.
SPEAKER_02Correct. But but then that one got purchased back and it and it cost everything. And that was the point was God's trying to show that he's different. He's different, that he's willing to pay whatever it takes to get his bride to take her back. But that's the point with Christ. What Christ does is he redeems the prostitute and ultimately he purchases her back, and now he's a she's a bride, and he wants her so much the price he's willing to pay is his own life. He laid down his life for that bride, and then he invites the bride into his kingdom where the beast uses his prostitute to build his kingdom. And so there's two completely uh different forms of leadership uh between the Christ and then the fake Christ, the counterfeit.
SPEAKER_00And I think it does bring up the question of the kind of things we rely on. Because you you made that statement early on there that part of the key for devotion is dependence that's developed. And then it I can't help but think about the other day whenever we had a nationwide ATT outage. Um Panic. And then later we had a pretty large, wide-scale Facebook outage. And Instagram. And Instagram hit hard. It was hard. But it does bring up that question, you know, what are we so reliant on? And I guess every listener should ask this. What am I so reliant on that I don't know how I would live or get by if I didn't have it in my life? And what then does that say about me and my character and where my reliance lies? Um, it's a hard question to ask. Because when we live we live in a culture where we don't have to go down to the river to get our water, we don't have to um, we don't have to necessarily worry where the next meal comes from, though for some for all many in our world that is the case. But for I would I would dare say that anybody who has the time to listen to a podcast, it might not be the natural thing. And so I think I think that when we're talking about the characteristics of the kind of people who are going to follow the beast, they're gonna be people that are so dependent on things other than Christ that if Christ was not a part of their life, they would not recognize that he was gone. Yeah, because the th the real things that they depend upon and the real realistically the real things they worship they can't handle not having those things. Yeah. Um and it's a bold statement to say it's it's it's a hard one. And I mean, frankly, from somebody in my position, it's untested, right? Um but I do think it bears some introspection for us of what what what can we not live without and what would cause us to question our faith if we didn't have it?
SPEAKER_02Um Well, it makes me think of Jesus when he says, uh, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, uh, for they will be satisfied. So when you are hungering and thirsting for God and for his righteousness, we're told you'll be satisfied. Um, what you see in Revelation is people are hungry and thirsty for the physical. They need to eat, they need, they need shelter, they need a place, but then they're willing to give whatever it takes and uh to receive those things. But if you seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, we're told all these other things are going to be added unto you, is what Jesus says. So uh it's uh the key is which savior do you trust in the in the Christ or in the Antichrist for for the time of tribulation? He's saying, Seek me, and all these things will be added to unto you. And Jesus says, No, just seek me and just watch me work. Um, but we all have to make that decision, even if we're not living during that time of tribulation. It's who are you gonna seek and who are you gonna trust? Uh is it gonna be the trut to trust the prince of the power of the air and follow the ways of this darkness? Or do you trust Christ? And and and we're told if you do, all these other things are just gonna be added unto you, we'll be okay.
SPEAKER_00And I think ultimately our whole conversation here has really kind of hit upon the purpose of what 17 and 18 are about. Yeah, whereas a lot of times we come at it as, well, this is just gonna be an intellectual exercise and we're gonna get to see what things are going to be like and all that. That's really not the point of what is being written here. The point here is the revealing. And when things are revealed, knowing that our hearts are revealed also. And so, friend, if you're reading the book of Revelation and you're reading it purely for an academic exercise and to try to understand a future timeline of what's gonna happen, you have missed the point. Um, ultimately, this whole book is about revealing the heart of man and revealing the heart of Jesus. And I hope that knowing that you would go back and read it again and read read it again, not dissociating yourself from any of the characters that are in here, maybe except for the beast. I don't know that you want to associate yourself with the beast or Jesus. Don't associate yourself with Jesus either. But, you know, making sure that as you're reading it, you're putting yourself in the place of these different people of, you know, what is different about me from these these merchants that are wailing about the Antichrist going away? I mean, what what what makes me any different than these kings that are here? What makes me any different from the martyrs that are that are there or the 144,000? Like what what it's only when we start to do that that we that we start to see our own lives change. Um and so that's my kind of hope for you as you're reading this that that it is something that you start to challenge yourself. Who am I in this story? And and where do what camp do I really fall into? And what does that mean for the way that I need to lead my life? Um so with that, I think we're kind of to the end of the chapters 17 and 18 here. Uh Jonathan, uh Stephen, anything else that you wanted to cover before we jump off the air? No, I'm good. I'm good. I'm just excited to be wrapping up the tribulation. To get into a nice nicer part.
SPEAKER_02Brighter days are ahead, guys. So thanks for being with us. Things are on the up and up from here to go out.
SPEAKER_00That's a good advertiser for what's to come, right? It's like, but wait. Yeah. No, it's that actually this part was the but wait. There's more. But then now we're going to the good part.
SPEAKER_02So Babylon has fallen. And if you don't know, Babylon has fallen, which now means the kingdom will come to this earth and and and Jesus will return in the story. And so uh it's all hope-filled stuff on coming up. So if it's been heavy for months, I felt the same way. But the good news is uh good news is coming and it's on the way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is the and here comes the part you've all been waiting for. So there we go.
SPEAKER_02The happy ending's coming. The happy ending.
SPEAKER_00Well, friends, thank you for taking the time to join us on the Citizen ATX podcast today in Revelation Director's Cut. And as always, we welcome your questions or thoughts on the podcast. You can either email us at info at AustinBaptistchurch.com or uh do a direct message on Instagram at Austin Baptist Church. But for Steven and for Jonathan and myself, we're glad that you've joined us, and we look forward to seeing you next time on the Citizen ATX Podcast.