Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Revelation_Directors Cut: The Marriage Supper
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"Here comes the bride..." Any of you married ladies remember the day of walking down the aisle? Do you remember how happy everyone was to see you? What about the reception afterwards? The church is referred to as the "Bride of Christ". This is, of course, a metaphor used to show how much Jesus loves us. Join Matt, Stephen, and Jonathan as they discuss this "Marriage Reception" found in Revelation 19:1-10.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillum, and we are glad that you are joining us as we are coming back to our series Revelation Director's Cut. If you've missed the previous, how many, how many episodes? What, nine, ten? Can't keep up a million past million episodes. We have been taking time of walking chapter and chap by chapter through the book of Revelation as it's being preached at Austin Baptist Church, but also taking the time to do deeper dives on these pieces of scripture that seem to have a lot of depth to them. And so today with me on the podcast is Pastor Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Hello, Matthew. And also with me is Stephen Vaughn, who is our dire uh not director, our our minister of media. What what is your title? I forget.
SPEAKER_01Director of uh Director of Media Ministry. He doesn't know his directory. It's really complicated to explain.
SPEAKER_02The guy what makes the sounds happen.
SPEAKER_01That guy.
SPEAKER_02So, Steven, glad you're here with us on this podcast. Uh and today what we're doing is we're jumping into the first 10 verses of Revelation 19. And first, I will say, whenever I I was preparing for this, I got a little thrown because I was expecting the full, full bore of Revelation 19, man. We've got all sorts of crazy stuff happening there. But and we're we're taking it light on you guys today, only hitting the first 10 verses. But Jonathan, first of all, I think what we have to, especially as we're coming back to this after about a two-week hiatus, um, where are we on the timeline here? Are we jumping back into chronology here or are we in a uh what kind of spot are we in as we go into one through ten?
SPEAKER_00Chapter 19 is a little bit of both. So right now, the text we're going to talk about today is what's a part of the final interlude. So if you're new to this podcast or you're new to the study, there's these interludes that break up the chronology of the book of Revelation. The first interlude is there between the sixth and seventh seal. The next interlude was between the sixth and seventh trumpet, and then there was an interlude between the trumpets and the bull judgments, and then that led us to this final interlude, which is where we are today, uh, that happens between the bowls, the bull judgments, and Christ's return. And so this interlude started in chapter 17, went to 18, and then now we're here in 19, and it just goes through the first 10 verses. So uh after we get through this picture in heaven, then it comes right back to the chronology of Christ's return, which comes really immediately after those bowls.
SPEAKER_02And as a quick definition, when we talk about these interludes, these are more descriptive, I guess, than prescriptive. Is that right? No, no, more they're they are descriptive portions of the scripture that are designed to give a fuller picture and more color to what's already happening.
SPEAKER_00It helps you do one of two things basically. It either is helping you understand the things that you already read in the chronology, or it really helps prepare you for the things that you're about to about to see in the chronology. So it does one of one of those two things, or in some cases it's both.
SPEAKER_02And for our comic book people, it's kind of like origin story sometimes, where or I guess maybe epilogues or you know, the the it's giving more more spiritual depth to these stories because I mean we see these characters that are happening in and are happening in the timeline, but there is a lot more going on belie beneath the surface than just a person who is a uh big bad guy, and there's there's uh a bigger purpose happening than a city that's or a nation that's full of corruption. It it goes down to a spiritual level. I know this is something that a lot of people struggle with when we're trying to interpret the book of Revelation where we ask, well, what should we take at face value versus what should we allegorize and and uh and search for deeper meaning on? But I hope that you, as the reader and the listener, look at these interludes and see this is an opportunity of interpretation that God is giving to us where we're able to fill out more in more depth these parts that are basically pretty hard to understand. Um so with that, you know, uh what are we looking at in this verse? What generally are these first ten verses of the uh Revelation 19, Jonathan?
SPEAKER_00So the first ten verses, it's really just a big celebration that's happening in heaven, and it's uh in contrast to what was really the other side of the interlude, the other side of the inner interlude was a lamentation. It was a song of lamentation in chapter 18 about Babylon's fall. And then chapter 19 on the front end really is a song of celebration about uh the lamb and the bride, and ultimately a celebration that's happening in heaven right before Jesus' return. So uh it's a song. It's uh there's four hallelujahs that kind of drive the song through those first uh ten verses, uh, but it's a celebratory song as all of heaven is rejoicing uh at Christ's imminent return that's about to happen in the text.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so uh Stephen, you had some thoughts on that because we one of the things that that puzzles me as I'm as I'm looking at this um is this setting side by side a song of lamentation, of crying, of upsetness, and things like that, which because a lot of a lot of what happens in that previous chapter, all these merchants saying, Oh man, there go my sales and you know, things like that. Um and now here you have a lot of rejoicing. So, how is it possible that you can have these two very different emotions literally butted up against each other?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so there's like there's this idea when you look at the songs of the lament, there's like four different, really four main categories, other subcategories of lament songs, but there are four main ones, like the individual lament is the main we one we normally think of, which is like putting your sorrows out to God. There's community events where the whole congregation's putting their sorrows up to God, that sort of thing. And there's royalty ones that are about if a royal person goes down or they die in battle or something like that, there's a lament song for that. But there's also one called the hymn of praise lament, okay, which is very interesting. Um, a great common example of this that's actually written in a hymn is I Stand Amazed in the presence, and like I got my good old trusty Baptist hymnal here.
SPEAKER_02There's the one.
SPEAKER_01I found it underneath the seat in the worship center. There it is. Um, yeah, so in stanza three of I Stand Amazed, this is this is what it says. It says, He took my sins and my sorrows, he made them his very own, he bore the burden to Calvary and suffered and died alone. Like that's a very lamentful, like he suffered and died alone. Like that is terrifying to think about of yourself if you were to suffer and die alone. But then the chorus is how marvelous, how wonderful, how you know, how beautiful is this thing that you would do this and you would suffer and die for me. So that's an idea of like a lamentful song that couples the idea of sorrow and worry and depression or any of those kinds of feelings that go along with that. And well, you know, uh praising the Lord and and that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because I mean I think really the the best way to be able to understand it is that I mean we we like to look at our world as this like dualism, right? Where there's there's good versus evil, there's happy versus sad, there's um, I guess beauty versus ugly, and and stuff like that. And we look at them as completely different kinds of things. But realistically, throughout the book of Revelation, there's not two gods serving side by side where you have good, happy God, and big, bad, mean God. You know, when God has justice uh exercises justice, which is what is happening here, uh there is only one action, but it el it it elicits two reactions. It's the s it's um the reaction of the people to the same thing happening. So uh so I guess to cut it short in it, you have um the first half of this is the reaction from the people who are on the wrong side of it. Yep and then uh in chapter 19 you have the people who are on the good side of it, the ones who are you know on God's side for that. And so I and why I think that's important is because I think we we when we look at the way that justice and righteousness moving forward in the world, we we love to fall into the good guys versus bad guys type thing. And in the world of grace, there is only one kind of guy, it's humanity, and it we're either we've either accepted the grace that's freely offered to us or we haven't, and our reaction is gonna be based on that.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think we have to establish that righteousness is righteousness, you know, just like truth is truth. And so you see a picture of righteous and true judgment that's happening, and the unrighteous do not like the righteous act that is coming. And then the the righteous, those who are redeemed, are celebrating the righteous act that is happening. And so to your point, it's one event. The event's not any different, but it it it solicits two different reactions depending on where you are. Uh if you're on the other side of it, if you're part of Babylon the Great in that context, if you uh had turned towards idolatry and immorality and rejected the lamb, then yes, the the imminent return and judgment of the lamb will bring lamentation. But then on the other side, if you've been redeemed through the blood of the lamb, that that return is also bringing celebration. And it comes full circle to where the book started in chapter one when there was the picture of the Son of Man, it talked about, I don't have the text right in front of me, but how many will wail on behalf of seeing him. And what you're seeing on the back end of Revelation is the fulfillment of that, that Christ's return is coming and there's great celebration, uh, but then there's also great lamentation. People are grieving on that earth because at that point the time is gone, the age of grace has come to a close and judgment is there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I mean it makes a unique kind of situation in the world because generally when we look at lament, we look at it as mourning or grieving or things like that. And so that song that you brought up earlier, Stephen, um, you know, the the reason it's joyful is because of the promise that we that we know. Because the truth is the same in both situations. You have, I mean, whether you believe in Jesus or not, he bore our sins up to Calgary Calvary. Not Calvary, he didn't go to Canada. He died for them too. That's true. That's why the Canadian flag's red, right? No, that uh but you know that there is that one truth, but it just bait it's based our response is gonna be based on what side we find ourselves in it. And you know, I I've often thought about that, and I have a good laugh with our our uh worship pastor uh often about this, about how you know we have songs that are like about fountains filled with blood and like things like that. I'm like, that you're if you're coming into that uninformed, you're it uh that's not great. It's not something you and yet we're singing this in a rejoicing kind of way, and it's based on what we know the promise to be um and we and the purpose of what we know it to be. And so um I think that that's how they can they can be together. Um it's because they are the same thing, it's just a different reaction to the same thing happening. Um so you have, as we mentioned, this um uh the song of of rejoicing and a lot of hallelujahs, which brings me to another question. Um, because hallelujah is something that's not just used in a a religious context, you know. It it seems like it's a word that's been kind of co-opted by all of the culture. I mean, if you've seen the movie Shrek, you've heard Rufus Wayne White Wright's cover of uh Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen. And actually that song has been covered by a lot of people. And so, I mean, one thing that that number one, it strikes me as odd that that would be something that people have co-opted for themselves, have taken for themselves to change the meaning to whatever they want it to be. Um, I mean, does that but does that speak to some of our spiritual state and the the way that what we've done to worship in general, that that a word like that that has such depth and sacredness could be treated with such f I'm not to use the big word frivolity, right? Uh I mean it it's just it's just thrown out there, right?
SPEAKER_00But it it is definitely a moral degradation, I guess, of society that you would point to. Because even that word we talked about this on Sunday, hallelujah, it's halal in in Hebrew, and then Yah was the shorthand for Yahweh, which brought that Hebrew word that we c we now translate in the New Testament as Hallelujah.
SPEAKER_02Which the the Hebrews because of the uh which is it, the second commandment won't even say I mean exactly God's personal name.
SPEAKER_00And to that point, when they wrote it, they wrote it with shorthand, you know, a description. They didn't want to say that word Yahweh or write it flippantly. Uh there's also old traditions and history, you know, people have noted different things like the scribes changing the pens, you know, every time they would write that word because it was just so holy and they they they took it so sacred and so seriously. So that word hallelujah is praise Yahweh. It's praise praise the Lord, is what we say it in English, but it's praise Yahweh. And to that point of an old testament Jewish understanding of the sacredness of that of that name and of s of that declaration to nowadays of yeah, you know, hallelujah, you know, the cowboys won. You know, like it's there's there's a there's a difference now of the way it's gone.
SPEAKER_02Well, and if you want a kind of weird, not a weird coincidence, but something that's very interesting. Did you know that Leonard Cohen's family came from a family of priests? They the Jewish priests, and so I mean it I mean that's just kind of background music history, but you know, it it does seem that in our culture words mean so much less now. And we we we miss out on the depth of what they can be because we demean them, I guess. And I mean, I don't know, it's just something that strikes me that as as we're saying all these kind of things, you know, the coming from cultures where they they they held it with such high regard they didn't even pronounce it. I mean, another kind of background thing, when you hear the word Jehovah in church, that's the same thing. It's a it's a Germ a German way of trans translating Yahweh. So, you know, for those of you who might have heard the word Jehovah in a in a worship song in service and say, uh, I don't we're not Jehovah's Witnesses, why are we saying that? That's why uh it's using an older turn of the word.
SPEAKER_00But I think, especially when the word's being used in a church, we'll say a Christian context, when Christians use the word hallelujah kind of flippantly, part of that is by nature because now as born-again believers of Christ, you know, there's no barrier between us and the Lord. There's freedom, we have this access to God, which is all good and given to us through the blood of Christ. But I don't think with that that that even though we've been made holy, I think sometimes we forget that we still have to walk in holiness and we're called to be holy as he is holy. So it's that fine line where I think why how did we get here culturally in the church? I think, yeah, it's because we're under the new covenant of grace that kind of helps us put our guard down in some ways, doctrinally so, you know, in in in a way. But but on the other side, we have to remember he's still the same God. You know, he's still the same God and we are still broken people. We're redeemed, uh, but it but at the same time we're broken. So I think it is a good reminder just for us. Most Christians don't, I say most, many Christians don't just say the Lord's name in vain, all that stuff. But I think also we we forget that his name is holy. I think it's just a good reminder that that we that we're not like him. Like we need to remember that that that we've been redeemed by him, but we're still not like him. Uh that he is different than us. So it's just a good reminder of that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And kind of moving back to cultural type reactions to things, here in Austin, Texas, yesterday, we experienced a for who what for some people will be a once-in-a-lifetime event of a total solar eclipse. Yeah. So I don't know about y'all. I I was at a uh elementary school for it because my daughters are both uh in elementary school, and and as a result, whenever you know they talk about oh, there's gonna be all it's gonna go like night and it's gonna be all quiet, and there's gonna be like birds and bugs and stuff doing uh nighttime sounds, it was just a bunch of kids screaming. But that I mean, but people were freaking out at the at this uh at this uh sol total solar eclipse. I mean, what was y'all's experience of it uh yesterday? I mean, I know y'all were in different environments than I was in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I I was here at the church with our staff and it was a good time. Uh we got to we actually were getting worried for a second because there were so many clouds everywhere, first of all. Yeah, and then all of a sudden it just opened up right before the eclipse happened and we got to see the whole thing. But um, yeah, I thought it was really cool. I would say before this eclipse, I was taking a crazy YouTube deep dive of all the things out there, you know, that people are like to talk about. Yeah. Um yeah, I mean it was pretty fun.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I mean what brings me to think about the focus on this is I mean, in reality, these people a lot of these people were worshiping what they were seeing in the heavens, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, I I I I walked past people that were wearing eclipse t-shirts that they made, especially for the occasion. Not not to not to throw uh guilt at people if you did that. But I mean, people who were but you know, people who were are not believers are were doing some pretty nutty stuff getting ready for this. Um and maybe I'm just you know cynical about this kind of thing, but I'm like the moon's there most nights. I mean it just happens to be right there right now and just you know kind of cool crossing, but I don't know, there's nothing mystical about it.
SPEAKER_00I think we all want to be in awe of something. I mean that's why we go on vacations to the mountains and to the ocean. It's because you want to stand before something great, and that's that's what we're all drawn towards. And obviously God's supposed to be that great one that we're drawn to, and everything else just reflects his glory, and that's the purpose, even of the eclipse. You know, there's the famous Psalm one nineteen or excuse me, nineteen uh verse one that was being quoted a lot on social media yesterday that the heavens declare the glory of the Lord and the skies proclaim the work of his hands, which is true, and that's what the eclipse was doing. It was proclaiming the work of the Lord, the work of his hands. But to your point, Matt, without a you know, born-again perspective, a Bible-believing perspective, then what are you going to glorify then? Uh, because if you're not gonna glorify the work of his hands, you're just glorifying the work and then you're glorifying that. And and I do agree with you, I think a lot of people lost their minds yesterday and they don't even know that they're worshiping the moon and they're worshiping the sun, but that's what they're doing. I mean, because they they are in awe of this great thing that they have no point back to a creator. Uh so they're just in awe of the creation, which is the Romans 1 indictment. And so I think you're a hundred percent spot spot on on that.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think it connects back to this whole conversation about the handling of sacredness of like the hallelujahs there in the passage. I mean, you also see John in this this chapter do something kind of similar where it's clear he being presented with all of these truths of what God has done, he he doesn't know what to do with it. Like, I mean, he he he is overwhelmed. And I I do think we need to question a little bit in our culture the role of wonder and awe and where where has it gone to where what are the things that the average believer in their daily life in their devotional life are you floored by? Yeah, right? Like even even as a church going person, you know, we we live in such you know twenty-four hour cable television, no, not even cable, phone news. Um we live in a place where you have all these electronic wonders around us, these drone shows, you know, they're like I love climbing mountains and now I can kind of I can go to YouTube and watch a video of people climbing pretty much any mountain in the world. Like that it but uh so what is the role of the believer living in a a culture as a citizen of this culture, citizen of the heavenly kingdom? How do we find wonder in a world that largely is dissociating itself from it?
SPEAKER_00You just gotta I think keep renewing your mind daily that that all these things are from God. I think I think it comes into us reminding ourselves because culture teaches you to be God uh or to worship other things as God. And so I think until you make a concerted effort, which honestly can only be made through a daily renewal of your mind that that there is a God, I serve him, all this is his. And I think until we we train ourselves to do so, we are gonna probably fall prey, you know, into those those same tendencies to start accidentally worshiping other things instead of him and and failing to give him the glory. But I guess the point of revelation though, just to add on to that point, what's sad is you get this far into revelation. A lot of Christians will read in this and they're marveling once again at the work of God, of what what he's about to do as opposed to God. This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, and the point is to point the glory to Christ as he is the the one that all eyes are on. This whole book's about his glory uh and ultimately what he's going to accomplish uh in these coming days. But but a lot of times people just get fixated on what he's doing, I guess. On what he's doing versus on the one who is the author and the perfecter of that faith.
SPEAKER_02Well, and if you're if you're reading this cold and you see these elders again, because like whenever the elders show up in sc in the book of Revelation, they're always falling from their face. I mean, it's it's it's constant, they're constantly falling down. And I mean, I think for us, I mean, you look at a worship worship experiences, right? Like in in in the wider church world, there's this craving for the new the novel, the new, the how what's the craziest thing we can do now? Well, who can we parachute down from the ceiling? Or you know, what what can we get a key tar in worship? You know, they things like that. And I'm not again not dem denigrating newer styles of of worship, but be because we live in a culture that is that is um lacking in awe and in wonder, we try to manufacture that. I think I could be wrong, you all can disagree with me, but uh, I feel like we try to manufacture that, which then teaches us, you know, if you're doing something again the same way, it becomes a boring exercise, right?
SPEAKER_00Because God does uh in our worship of God, oftentimes he pulls the heartstrings that he's put in us, the emotions you know play into our worship, which is natural, and that's actually good because God made us that way. But I think sometimes we have to remember that our worship doesn't always give us the warm fuzzies every time. That's something I think if if you become a believer and you think what it means to be spiritual is to have you know these warm fuzzies and all these this big emotive experience every time you are quote worshiping God, you're setting yourself up for spiritual failure. Uh, because what other relationship is like that where you always have just the these dynamic, explosive emotions every time you talk to someone. Yeah, you know, that that's not normal. Uh at the same time, I think when we fall into that tendency where worship is all about how I feel when I worship, well then what are you worshiping would be the question because if it because it sounds like you might be worshiping the feeling that worship gives you. Yeah, the emotion. Exactly. And now God might not be at the center of your worship. So I think it's it our we're deceptive, I guess is the best way to put it. That sometimes we aren't even at our hearts wanting to worship the Lord. We're wanting to worship the way the Lord will make us feel by worshiping him. And that's and it's a mess.
SPEAKER_02I was listening uh before the eclipse uh on a on a radio station. We talked about this the other day, where um there was a person who was talking about how they were preparing spiritually for the eclipse, which is bizarre. Like and the person's not a believer. Uh but she but the the person said that she then went and got uh her tarot cards read. And then man, just just so you know, listener, I'm extraordinarily skeptical and cynical about that garbage, but uh there was they she said they turned over one card and it was a certain card, and the person said it was related to some vague trauma in her past or whatever, and she went on to say that it reminded her of a fight she had with her sister and she started crying, and that was it. And I'm and I'm um as I stepped back and was listening to that and thinking about it, I was like, what was what was the goal of this whole procedure that she was doing? Like, was it to make herself cry? I mean, there was no resolution of the relationship there, it was just her being upset about something. But then I kind of took another step back and and thought about, you know, what what when we come to church and we're preparing and getting ready to lead in worship services, what is our goal? Is our goal to make people cry? I mean that that I mean, frankly, that that's easy. There's plenty of things to cry about in the world. But are we are we in our worship laying ourselves down to the one who deserves it? And yet, here I mean, guess here's here's a question. Does posture matter when it comes to worship? Right. What do y'all think?
SPEAKER_01I think it does. I mean, I I would say the important part of it is it is a surrender to God. So you're surrendering, like, yes, you should connect emotionally to God, not saying that you shouldn't, but the point of your emotions and connecting them to God is to unload unload those burdens in your life, to get them out of the way, so you can connect to what God and the Holy Spirit are trying to say to you and explain to you and show you. And that's the whole purpose of worship is that we connect to God and we worship God, and the outflowing of our praise to him comes back and and we begin to uh see uh make a connection to the things that he's done in our lives and how he's changed our lives and how he's worked through us, and that emotion helps us to then turn that into a greater glorification of him.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think I think posture that plays into all that because sometimes sometimes we need the posture to prompt our heart. That's the point. Um, you know, God is not honored by my just knees hitting the ground. Like to your point, Stephen, he wants my heart to hit the ground, but but my heart sometimes can't hit the ground unless I make my knees hit the ground first because that positioning, it does what you're commanded to do. I quoted that on Sunday, 1 Peter 5, 6. Peter says, humble yourself under the mighty hand of God. That at the proper time he may lift you up. And so there's this calling on each of us to humble ourselves. And could you humble yourself sitting or standing? Of course. Yes, absolutely. But sometimes, frankly, you got to get on your knees. And I I believe every Christian on earth should get on their knees at some point regularly. I believe that's a biblical idea, and I think it's just a common sense practice. Um, now I understand there also might be listeners that are advanced in age, maybe you're physically unable to. Of course, God understands that, and I'm not being legalistic about it. But what you see with John in the text, what you see with the angels, what you see with the 24 elders is normal behavior before a holy God. Absolutely. It's it's falling down in a posture saying, I got nothing to offer you. I can't, I I can't, I'm not you, you are greater, and I submit.
SPEAKER_02I submit to you. Well, and in the history of the world, standing there with your hands in your pockets has never been considered worship. Not open at all. I mean I mean, even even in the context of pledging allegiance, they expect you to put your hand on your heart. Yeah. I mean, one of the one of the and one of the reasons I think that we we find ourselves in this space, at least in the church, is that there we we are we are people of pendulums. Like we that you look at the charismatic movements of the early 1900s moving up until today, and and people are scared that they're gonna fall into some kind of charismatic self-worship type thing. Um there's also a feeling of, well, if I am openly demonstrable in worship, then I'm gonna be drawing attention to myself. Um, you know, one of the things that I'll say is that uh, you know, growing up in a Southern Baptist church, I was not I I did not have much of a model of people worshiping by their posture. Yeah. They would worship with their voices, which was great. And I'm you know very, very uh thankful for that. But, you know, I mean, there it was never the only thing that was ever addressed about somebody raising their hand or closing their eyes during worship was, oh, they're just trying to draw attention to themselves.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that does something to you. It gives you a complex, right? I mean, now as an as an adult, you know, if there's a song I one of the things I think that is important is that if whenever you when we are worshiping and we do want to represent ourselves by but whatever posture, it's being honest with what we're doing, right? Like so one of the things that I all personally do is that if the song is proclaiming some kind of truth about God as though we were testifying, I hold my hand up as though I was testifying. I mean, that on and friends, if y'all don't know, that's part of the reason why that that that exists, is because when you're called to testify, you're called to raise your hand because it it means I'm putting myself on the spot to declare this truth. There are some times when you're singing a song where you're confessing to God and you're opening yourself, opening up your heart to him, right, and people will hold their hands out in front of them of look, God, I'm not holding back anything from you. Yes. There's meaning behind it because sometimes when we have to thoughtfully change our posture, it makes us focus on the reason for it.
SPEAKER_01And we do see this biblically as well. I mean, the song of Miriam Miriam is a great example that just popped into my head of she literally takes a tambourine and starts dancing and singing to God because they he just led them away from from the is uh from the Egyptians. Right. So I mean I agree.
SPEAKER_00And I think it's it's worth noting that these issues of we're talking about are public worship. So I think it's also real quick, real quick, it's important to differentiate private versus public worship. Yes. And so the public worship, we are called to the gathering, we're called to worship publicly. That's what has been within the tradition of Judeo-Christian values forever, Old Testament and New Testament. So we're called to do that, and the public worship usually kind of gets polluted by cultural practices and bad habits. And to your point, Matt, you know, in the American background, especially uh, I would say in the last 50 years, when you're talking about just hands in your pockets, you know, kind of just watching the show, that was culturally manufactured. I mean, that that came through a series of decades uh where there's a c I believe there was a combination of one, our country was a little bit emotionally repressed, you know, suppressed. We didn't we we were trained to hold things in and not show emotion. There's generations of men and women that were trained that way.
SPEAKER_02Well, and we are talking about a specific portion of the American population. Correct. I'm speaking in this broad strokes.
SPEAKER_00No, no, I'm speaking in broad strokes. But when I talk about that though, if you if you look at 2024 versus let's say 1964, there is a huge difference there of even like right now, we're trained to wear our emotions on our sleeve in a crazy amount. Like the pendulum swung the other way, where it's like, yeah, air out all your feelings and emotions, let everybody see and know it on social media, on your car, on your phone, everywhere you go, on your shirt, be as loud about your emotions as you can and be free. Where 1964 is don't tell anybody about your emotions, hide it, keep it in the house, don't let me. And that both of those models, my point is, have impacted the church. Like at the 1964 church, it teaches you, well, you better look nice, you know, go to go to church, don't don't be too loud, don't sing, don't share, don't definitely don't cry, you know, don't do that. And then on the other side, in 2024, it's oh yeah, let it all out, you know, and then really quickly it can make it about you, like we talked about in the wrong way. So it's it's just I think it's worth noting that the public worship, the the issues we have, challenges, which will always happen in every church forever. Yeah, I think they do get informed by your culture and context.
SPEAKER_02And I think and I think that's why the highest calling of what you do, what your posture is in worship, I think is on honesty. Yeah. I mean, if you if you are genuinely feeling or experiencing mourning over something that's in your life, it's okay to express that by your by your posture. I mean, and I and I'm and I'm and hear me, listener, I'm not gonna be team, make everybody make everybody raise their hands, and if they're not raising their hands and they're not worshiping, that that's as manufactured as anything else. But there is a you know, there there needs to be space for us to challenge ourselves of why do I do anything that I do in worship? Because everything is supposed to be filled with meaning and everything is supposed to be directed toward God. And if if any part of what we're doing in worship is directed toward ourselves, toward our comfort levels, toward our um desire to be seen, right, then it's not it's not good. It it's distracting from the from the purpose. Um and so anyway, I think I think posture is a major part of this because the elders keep falling down. Um now one thing that I want to uh want to dig down into here, uh we're gonna see this metaphor keep happening here in the book of Revelation of supper, right? So so ostensibly by this point, John had been prophesizing for a while and was ready to get a snack, right? He needed some rodies, needed some rodies in heaven. They have better barbecue than rudies in heaven. Yeah, anyways. Um but let me ask this why do you feel like when when God is is giving this revelation of what's happening uh in heaven in a spiritual place where he could really do anything, why do they choose the metaphor of a supper to demonstrate celebration at the end of it? I mean, why why not riding in a dune buggy or um or playing in a marching band or I don't know, skiing? I mean, like what what what is it about the action of what a supper is that communicates so well what what is happening in this celebration?
SPEAKER_00The tables always had symbolic meaning of family, of fellowship, of celebration. It's it's communal. And so I I think all those things, you know, God created the family unit, he created the table, he created food, he created, you know, the regimen that we have of our routine of eating and gathering together, and he called for feasts in the Old Testament to celebrate and remember. So the table has always played a central role in God's people's lives. Going to the to the Old Testament, if you look back to the feasts and the celebrations, to if you go to the New Testament, you look at Jesus. What was the last thing he did before he went ultimately to go die? He went to the table. He went to the table with his friends. And so the table plays a a critical role uh because it shows uh it shows communal love and fellowship with one another, but it also is a place of celebration. And I think this part, obviously, in the context of a marriage, the table has a big role, and we talked a lot about that on Sunday of the celebratory nature that goes before the the ceremony of the wedding. And that's the picture you're getting here, is it's a huge moment, and you have all the saints coming together, the Old Testament and New, New Testament saints that are there, looking at Jesus and wow, we're here. Like this is this has happened, like we're here, and this is the moment.
SPEAKER_02And one major part of that with a feast is that the honor is always designed to go to the host. Yeah. Um I think in our in our American and Southern Baptists, I keep throwing Southern Baptists out there, but in in our in our context, you bring you if you go, if someone invites you to dinner at their house, you're a center. Can I can I bring my uh famous mashed potato salad or whatever you know, heavenly hash. So true story, this is kind of a side note, but in my in my church growing up, we had the potluck suppers on Wednesday nights, and my favorite person was the one who would go to Pizza Hut and get a Bigfoot pizza. I mean, nothing says I love you and come to my feast like a Bigfoot pizza. But we we carry that kind of connotation of, well, you need to carry your own weight and all that kind of in any kind of a feast culture, it's all about the host. The host is practicing grace toward the people. He is providing for them. And then ultimately in heaven, it's the ultimate uh expectation and outflow of the graceful and generous heart of God that He invites, He doesn't invite us in, or He doesn't tell us, come to heaven and bring a good dish, or you don't or you're gonna get kicked out. In fact, in the way that Jesus describes these wedding feasts, if you didn't the person who didn't take the wedding clothes that were prepared for him got kicked out. I mean, it's it's it's the world turned upside down. And so I mean, this is one of those ultimate expressions of grace that it it's it's to your point about the the the personalness and the friendship and the the the hospitality and the family, that that what's happening in heaven, the celebration is welcome home, friend. There's a place for you.
SPEAKER_00And I mean I think that's a beautiful and the place we have to remember is at the table as the bride. Like that's that's what I think we also have to remember. While this is the revelation of Jesus Christ, and to your point, the focus is on him and what he's done, he is sharing that limelight, if you will, with us as well. And that gets into the whole point of what it means to be redeemed in Christ, because when you're redeemed in Christ, you're now a part of a royal priesthood. You're a son or daughter of God, you're gonna co-reign with Christ. You are a co-conqueror with Christ. And that's the whole point is Jesus says, I'm sharing all that I have with you. And that's that's the picture you see at the marriage supper, as you're right. It's all about Jesus, yet he says, Here are seats for all of you. And you sit here with me because you're attached to me as that metaphorical bride. You get that seat of honor, and and that's such a powerful picture, too. I interpret that text. There's different ways people can look at that, but I talked about how it says, Blessed are the guests in verse nine. I believe that's the Old Testament saints, the guests, like they're the ones that are getting to come because they're not, they aren't the bride. The church is the bride, so the church is there. But who are all these guests? I believe it's all the forefathers, all the patriarchs, all the Old Testament saints that that ran their race anticipating this day of Christ redeeming a church and redeeming the world. And they're there watching it. And you look at people like us, I guess I I this is one thing I didn't talk about, but I was studying this, to think that I'll have a seat at that table, and there's Moses back there, you know, or Abraham back there as a guest, not to say that they won't enjoy it. I'm sure they'll they will. I'm sure there's enough for everybody. They're already enjoying it. Yeah, but that's my point is they are enjoying it. And isn't that cool that one that we get the seat of honor, I guess is my point, and then and that they are celebrating that we do have the seat of honor because the honor then goes to Christ because he's the one that got us to the table.
SPEAKER_02So it's pretty cool. Now that's a beautiful picture. And one one thing that also strikes me, too, is we're talking about in the the marriage metaphor, um, you know, uh a little some people will look at all of this and well, especially when we talk about being a bride and being prepared for for God and all that. Um will look at this and say, you know, as a if if I'm supposed to be considered the bride of Christ as part of this church, um, man, I've been unfaithful. And I mean, you you also look to some of the the uh crises that have hit the church in the past decades of things that were done by priests or pastors and things like that. And and there they I think that can be a real struggle for people uh when they read things like this of golly, I mean, you know, it's it's it's setting up this seat of honor for the bride and it it's all being built up and Jesus has done all this for her. I mean, but the bride, the bride seems to have been unfaithful. And so, you know, how how how should we respond to that? How how do we how can we understand something like that? If if so and even if on a personal level someone feels, man, in my heart, I I I don't feel like I've been faithful to Christ. Um how am I supposed how am I supposed to find a seat at the in the kingdom?
SPEAKER_00The marriage metaphor when Paul explains it, he's applying it to husbands in Ephesians 5, and he tells husbands to love their wives the way that Jesus loves the church. But what he explains in the way the the way that Jesus loved the church, yes, he died for her, and we always talk about that when we start preaching to men. But there's the other part that is in verse 26, it says that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church, the bride, to himself in splendor without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. And so that that comes back to that picture of what do you feel like in other words, you're you're basically asking the question, what if you feel like a dirty bride? It's basically what you're saying. And what Paul just said is you're not a dirty bride. He's actually presenting you to himself without blemish. And so the question is, well, how is that possible? It's because you didn't dress yourself with righteousness. It was Christ that he sanctified you, he presented you as pure, which you see that actually reiterated in the marriage supper in verse 8 in Revelation 19. It says it was granted for her, the bride, to clothe herself. Right. So it was granted, meaning that was given to her. Like she did not just clean herself up, it was granted her this righteousness that was given to her. And then in that righteousness that she received, she pursued righteousness as she awaited him. And so that's kind of the idea of the bride. We have been cleansed by Jesus Christ, but we're also called to prepare ourselves for Jesus Christ. So we we pursue righteousness uh daily through our actions when we also have already received an imputed righteousness that's been given to us to cleanse us from our record.
SPEAKER_02And I mean that's that's also reflected in the Lord's Supper, right? That I mean they they had to have their feet clean so they'd be they would be ritually clean for supper. Right. And then the host, who all the glory is designed to, is Jesus, gets down and starts starts washing their feet. You know, a lot of a lot of faith uh practices will will practice foot washing alongside the Lord's Supper and baptism is one of the ordinances. I mean we don't, particularly because it's kind of murky whether we really should or not, or whether it still applies necessarily literally. But the the point is the same. It's that you know, it is by that is what grace means. It means not just not just being forgiven of sins but made clean. That's what the word sanctified means. It's not this is okay. It's uh transformed into the into the a the likeness of Christ and so that we're wearing the the the glory that we carry is is uh that which he's given to us. And so I think I think it uh it changes the whole paradigm of the way that we look at heaven uh and what it looks like with with uh the coming of Christ. But I do think that's something that's important for us that you know when we struggle with sin, you know, it's it uh it's it says that uh in first John in first John, um if any any have sin, uh and it you probably can quote that directly out of it.
SPEAKER_00He says if anyone claims to be without sin, he's a liar. Right. The truth of God is not in him. But then it goes on and says, but if but if we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive us, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I'm this I'm my coffee's wearing off, so my memorization goes down with that. So you know, I I think, listener, as you're as you're battling with these these pictures and these metaphors, and you think, I don't know that I I I don't match the standard, remember you're not making your own seat at the table. Like someone else has made it for you, and your response needs to be to thank him for it.
SPEAKER_00I mean, that's kind of where we're that's gonna thank him by pursuing holiness. And that's the point, like that 2 Corinthians 11, 2 passage, I think it was that I quoted talking about being betrothed to Christ, that we're called to set apart ourselves, it says, as that pure virgin, which once again is like weird symbolic language when we read that. But the idea being that we need to be saving ourselves for him, for his return. Like we are we are gonna live to the best of our abilities through the enabling grace of God, pure and holy lives for his glory, because he's already made us holy, so now we walk in holiness in response to that action. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so then that gets us to what I have for my last question. And um, and if you guys have other thoughts or observations from this passage, happy to talk about those. But um at the end of verse 10, we we have kind of a weird thing happen where John falls at it, falls to his face to worship the angel. The angel says, Hold up now, don't do that. Like I'm a messenger, uh, which you know again, we're talking about the eclipse being the that picture of part of God's glory and holiness, and so people worshiping the message messenger and not the one making the message. But uh he tells them to get up, and so he does. Um, but then it closes this with for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. So why in in in my version of it here, English Standard Version, it falls out of quotes here where it's just John saying this in general as like a fact statement, not as a direct quote from the angel. Yeah. So why is John giving us this dropping this truth on us here at the end of verse 10 at this point in the book of Revelation?
SPEAKER_00Well, because he first starts worshiping the angel, which by the way, I don't think he was being a heretic. I think he was overcome by emotion and he just started responding. I think that was just an emotive response. I think he rightly understands that Christ is Lord and he wasn't making a uh dogmatic decision in the moment. I think it was an emotional decision he was making. He just fell. But the angel quickly had to address that and said, Hey, I'm just a servant like you. Start worshiping God. I and he says, I'm just like you. But that point when he says the testimony of Jesus uh is the spirit of all prophecy, it points to what that angel is speaking. The angel is speaking prophetically, if you will, you know, giving this picture of what's to come. And what John is saying is what that angel said, and what every prophet has ever said, and every to this day prophet to use that word, meaning preachers, what everybody says, it's ultimately the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of that prophecy. It's all about Jesus. And so his point is don't worship the messenger. You know, it worship in light of the message. The message is Jesus. And so that response goes to Christ. It should not go to man, which I think is a good reminder of a couple things. One, all of the prophecy, I believe that's speaking in totality of all the scriptures from Old Testament to New, that the spirit of all prophecy was the testimony of Jesus. It always pointing towards this moment of the culmination of redemption through Jesus Christ. So it's always been about Jesus. It's always pointing there. That's what the Bible speaks to. It's all about him. But then on that other end, of those of us that speak about Jesus, then whether you're a preacher or you're just an ambassador for Christ, which is just every believer, by the way. So for any of us, it's not about the worship of us either. That's the whole point. That the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. It's all about him. And I think it's a good helpful reminder because if you're good at proclaiming the prophecy, then usually you get a little bit of worship, truthfully. And I say that as a preacher. And but I think any of us that that communicate the word well, or you share some wisdom, or you point to the scriptures, you help explain it, it's easy to be uh it's easy to be enthralled by those kind of people. And I say that as a preacher, and I view that way about other preachers. There's preachers I admire that that put me under the table. I mean, they they're incredible preachers, and you look at me, you're like, wow, like, oh, that guy, he's anointed, he's got something special.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And maybe he is, and maybe that's true, but what he has special is Christ, and it has nothing to do with the person. And the point is once again, worship God. Yeah. Because the spirit of all prophecy is ultimately all about Jesus.
SPEAKER_02So let me throw a throw a uh not a hypothetical, but a a problematic question, maybe. When we look at the way that we as Christians look at scripture and how high regard we some uh Christians hold the Bible in, do you think that sometimes we fall into a similar pattern here of what John is doing of worshiping the message itself, where there may be some who are so dogmatically um about the Bible itself that the worship is not doesn't wind up being directed to God, but to the to the Bible, the book itself.
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And that's that's Pharisee 101 at the end of the day. That's those are the people that Jesus yelled at constantly, you know, in his in his earthly ministry. Because that's the idea, is I think some people worship, once again, feelings. This is emotions, it's just in a different way of what we were talking about earlier. A lot of people worship the feeling of being right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like of being right about things. If I know the prophecy, like I have the code cracked, I have my timeline, my chronology, I've nailed it, I've read the book, I've heard all the podcasts, I've read all these things, and I have knowledge now. And people worship being right, like they want to be right and be seen before others as right, which once again is a God complex that we idolatry that we just don't acknowledge. So absolutely, I think that's a hundred percent true. I think there's a lot of people, you have to ask, what's your ambition with the Bible? Because the ambition of the Bible is it's God re God's revelation of himself to us. So he's trying to reveal a person himself to us so that we could look to him, know him, and understand him and his purposes for our lives. But if but if we look at God's book as just an informational textbook, uh then you've missed the whole point. And I agree with you. I think there's a lot of people that know a whole lot about the Bible that one day will be in hell. And and and I think that's also because Jesus said that himself when he talks about sheep and goats, which we'll actually get a little bit into that this weekend in the judgment. But uh, but I think that's just the truth, that the that we can deceive ourselves, that we think we're on some spiritual journey. It's really a humanistic journey at the core of it.
SPEAKER_02And I think you know, part of our problem, like we won we want to hold the Bible in high regard. And even what prophecy is at its base is not really it's not fortune telling, it's communicating the words of God themselves. And so when we have the word of God in Scripture, it's very easy to look at that and say, well, this is our infallible and errant um uh text of the word the very words of God. Um and I just I think I think we do get splashover that happens where you know we we get so obsessed with trying to to be right, to have that secret knowledge that we miss the person behind all of it. It's it's a lot easier to say we worship an idea, because an idea doesn't make any claim on you. It's just uh it's a it's a thought, it's a you know you know, amorphous bubble out there versus a person.
SPEAKER_00I'll take it a step worse. If you worship the idea, then it becomes your idea. Yeah. And then and then you worship yourself. And I think that's a lot of the core of it too. It once again it's full circle idolatry, because we love being right because that makes me right. And now I worship that idea because that idea will make me worship me, and others worship me as well. So it's it's deceptive in our hearts what we do with these things.
SPEAKER_02And I think that lays out a challenge for those listeners who just who love Bible study, because it it is a very good thing to study the Bible. It's a very good thing to acquaint yourself with the word of God and to um to hide it in your heart that you might not sin against God. However, do you know the person? Do you know the one who's talking about? Are we you know, you look at the Ethiopian eunuch, right, uh in in the book of Acts. He's driving along, he's reading from the book of Isaiah, and that's what Philip asks him. He's like, Yeah, do you know him? And the guy's like, Well, how am I gonna know this unless someone explains it to me? I mean, I don't so I think it changes our outlook on it. It changes our humility, our posture before God when he's not an idea, he's not a feeling of goodness, he is a he is the person of the Trinity, the persons in the Trinity that we're we are to worship. And I'm not gonna get down into that ball of wax right now. But yeah, ultimately, I hope that that that that's a good challenge for you, listener, that even as you love scripture, don't lose the forest for the trees. See, remember the person that this was all written about.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I will say this too on that note, because I obviously advocate for Bible study. I've committed my life to the Bible, so I think I think all of us should commit ourselves to the book. But I think if you're wanting right right now, just thinking, am I am I doing this the right way or not? I would I would maybe have you I would come to a couple points. I think people that humbly study the word of God in the right way you're talking about, I think two outcomes come from their life on that. The number one thing is the first thing they realize is even though they are getting really smart, they start to realize how little they know. Because I think the more you get into the book, the more you realize the richness of the book and the depth and knowledge and wisdom of God, and you realize I'm just still on the surface. So there's people that are doing it the right way. It actually does the opposite of pride. It actually uh brings about humility from your heart thinking, oh my gosh, like I've I've I'm still not there. Like I'm so far off on what I actually know. So if you if you're in that boat, you're in a good place. If you feel like, oh man, I'm I I should get a degree now, and people should start calling me different things, because man, I'm I'm pretty much a rabbi now. Well, that's not a good sign. But but if you but if you say, Man, now I know so little, because but the reality is you're learning much, that's a good sign. And the second thing I was gonna attack on there is the more you get in the book, the more you should realize how far you fall short. Because the most mature Christians, they aren't really the ones that sin the least, they're the ones that repent the quickest. And so the more you read the book, the more you realize, oh, well, God, I'm sorry. Like there it is, there it is again. I messed up again. I'm sorry, Lord, and you repent quickly and you move on with your life. But those are signs of of mature biblical study as you realize how little you know and you realize how far you fall short. And uh, if those things are happening in your world, then you're doing pretty well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and sounds an awful lot to me, like that same posture of wonder and awe when you when you come before the word, the word very words of God. And so, you know, I hope I hope, listener, as you're seeing this celebration, this supper, that you are encouraged that you know, with there is a seat prepared for us, that these these words that God shared across the centuries are designed just as much for you now as they were for the people that were originally getting John's message. And so know that you belong. And if you and if you've never accepted that grace, if you've never accepted the fact that that Christ Himself has prepared a place for you, maybe it's time to take a step back and humbly consider what is what would what would Jesus want from me? Like what what would it mean for me to lay down my sin, to repent of it, and to accept him as Lord? Um that means that's the heart of the gospel. It's accepting that you have a seat at the table, that your sins can be forgiven by his sacrifice. Um so that's all I've got for today as far as questions, guys. Y'all have anything for the for this before we go? They're both shaking no radio listeners. We need to get on to a video podcast so they can see me looking cool in front of my microphone with my big headphones and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_01One day with the cool American flag. With a cool American flag behind me.
SPEAKER_02For those of you who can't see, there is an American flag right behind me in our essential store clos uh store closet of a uh studio. Anyway, well, thank you for joining us today on the Citizen ATX podcast. We hope you will tune in next week as we dive further into the book of Revelation, chapter 19. Continue reading for depth, friends, and on behalf of Stephen and Jonathan and myself, we uh hope that you have a great week that you dive deeper in scripture and that this weekend you find a place to worship. Take care, and we'll see you next time on the Citizen ATX Podcast.