Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Revelation_Directors Cut: His Kingdom Come
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At this point in Revelation, Armageddon is over and the anti-christ and the dragon are done for. However, Satan is still around. Also, everyone left on earth that hasn't chosen to follow Christ is killed and sent to Hades. What more is left to do? Join Jonathan, Matt, and Stephen to find out the next step of God's master plan in Revelation 20.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillum, and we are glad you are joining us as we are continuing this week the Revelation Director's Cut series. Every week we have been following along with the sermon series as it's been happening on stage at Austin Baptist Church, going into deeper dives on these different sets of scripture out of the out of the book of Revelation for better understanding. And so with me in the studio today is Stephen Vaughn. Hello, Stephen.
SPEAKER_01Hello.
SPEAKER_02And also Jonathan Spencer.
SPEAKER_01Howdy, Matthew.
SPEAKER_02And so we are, as we embark here on chapter, or not chapter, chapter 20, and this is episode 14. So I'm trying to keep those numbers straight in my mind. Um we we are getting into what I would say is probably the one of the most preached parts of the book of Revelation, because we we get to the to the end of the story is uh and as part of that we have a lot of things that have been very deeply theologically argued over the years. And so jumping in here first, we see the bottomless pit come in, right? And so uh so I'm a Parks and Rec uh fan, and so one of the one of the ongoing jokes about on our running gags in the show is about the pit, and even one of the characters sings a song about the pit, and so I'm thinking about that pit. Um but so the uh question I have early on as we've been walking through the chronology, that this is not the first time the pit has showed up in the book of Revelation, and so um you know, would this have been the same place where like back in Revelation 9, you have the the weird lady hair locusts coming out coming out of out of the pit, a baden, if you were keeping score at home. Um so is that the same place? Um I mean, what what what are we looking at here with this place that uh uh apparently Satan is gonna be uh uh bound and imprisoned in?
SPEAKER_01I think it is the same place. It's spoken of seven times in the book of Revelation, and so I think it is the same place that's being spoken of. But like you said, you know, the most of our memory of this place is when it was opened up, and it was opened up to unleash the demonic uh into the world uh as a means of judgment during uh first it was during the trumpet judgments. So that was kind of where we first learned about it. It was opened up to release, but here it's gonna be closed down to receive, and it's receiving Satan in this picture. But uh if you tie it in there, going back even into the New Testament, I I pointed out in Luke chapter eight, uh, I mentioned this on Sunday, that Jesus, when he's interacting with the demons, with the guy who's possessed and says, What demon is in there? What's your name? And they say, Our name is Legion, because there's many of us, they're scared of Jesus. One, they know who he is already in that passage, but then they try to bargain with Jesus. They say, Just don't send us into the abyss. It's the same place. So this is a a known commodity in hell and amongst the the demonic, even right now, that they understand there's this place known as this abyss that's a place of incarceration for really a certain level of demonic forces that will be unleashed.
SPEAKER_02Is it the same thing as hell? Because that that's kind of one of those curiosities of you know what what all these places are.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it gets into the spiritual realm side of this, because it's hard because we always think geographically, like, you know, like where where is this, you know, in relation to hell, if hell's that right here on the GPS, how many miles away is it? We're talking in a spiritual realm, so it's hard to to qualify that of where it is. I don't believe it's hell where the rest of hell is, but but it's connected to hell, and it's really it seems to be described as a as essentially a special place in hell, like it's a it's another level of incarceration within that that that some are actually taken away, if you will, from the general population of hell and being held in a in a place of darkness uh that the other demons were fearful of. They didn't even want to go there because they knew how horrible it was.
SPEAKER_02And I think I'm I'm trying to think back, but it's is it Second Peter that talks about the the uh spirits being held in chains and things like that? And one thing that strikes me about this, because we think about when you see abyss or you see bottomless pit, you're like, yeah, a really, really deep hole. But when you think about what a real bottomless pit would be of just falling forever, like how disconcerting and chaotic and um you know uncontrollable. Like you think about what Satan does over and over again, and what these demons do over and over again is they manipulate, they control, they interact. And this is the exact opposite of that. When you're in a in a bottomless pit, I mean, you're just falling forever. So I can I can imagine that being torment that you know you there is no bottom. So you're not gonna hit a rock bottom, you're in it. Um, and so I mean it it's interesting that here after Armageddon, which happened right before it, and you have all these people slain, um Satan is still not in there. Like it's interesting because like before in chapter 19, you have uh the false prophet and the antichrist get thrown into the lake of fire already. So I think we made the joke last week that they were warming it up for ever for everybody else. But yeah, so you have all these different places though. You have Lake of Fire, you have um the term death in Hades, which are gonna be used here in a little bit, um, and then you have the abyss. And so uh, you know, how are how are we to understand all of these things? I mean, as because I mean you made the statement, well, it's a spiritual realm, and so geography doesn't really make sense, but yeah. Um I guess in the in the mind of the reader, the original reader of this, you know, what what would they be connecting this to? I mean, how or how would they you know how would they be led to understand what this all means?
SPEAKER_01Well, going to hell, like we that topic of hell, which is really what we're talking about, it's discussed in the Old Testament and New Testament, in the Old Testament Sheol, and in the in the New Testament it's often called Hades, which is what we get into here in a moment. And so there's this known place of spiritual eternal torment uh that we just call hell. So those that are hearing it are aware of it, but what what the lake of fire is is ultimately the final version of hell. Um in the same way that right now there is a place called heaven, Jesus calls it paradise, it's the same thing, and one day there's gonna be a new Jerusalem, there's gonna be a new heavens and new earth. So I think what we gotta understand is there are just two places, like today, there are these two places that people go to, heaven or hell. And one day when Jesus returns and he's bringing all things to an end, there will be two places. It's just the final version of those two places. Um the the going back to the abyss, really it's just a it's kind of a novelty place, I guess, that serves as a a sub place underneath that banner of hell, if you will. That that is a place of incarceration that's that's also a temporal place. It's it's there for a finite period of time where those demons were put in there and they're being held there ultimately till this time of tribulation, and then once again, Satan will then be held there, but he'll be held there for a finite period of time for a thousand years, and then he'll go back to once again the one of two places. He'll go to the lake of fire in his case.
SPEAKER_02Well, another question that springs to mind when we use that term Hades, uh, it doesn't just appear in the Bible. Like, I mean, if if anyone has seen the uh Disney cartoon Hercules, right, played by James Woods, um, you know, Hades was a conception that was also in Greek mythology. Um, I think there's something interesting about that, that it in the human conception, even in a non-Jewish, non-Christian uh background, there's still this idea of there being an afterlife and that there being a place in the afterlife that's not somewhere you want to be. Um and so I mean it is interesting to me when I I mean it's kind of similar to the whole conversation about we had on an earlier podcast about dragons, where it's interesting that there are so many different cultures that are disconnected across the world that have these same conceptions of aspects of the afterlife. As though it's as though it was the absolute truth, as uh as people are trying to understand it. Um so we see that that what Satan is doing here is again what he's been doing for throughout, where he is just kind of hanging out. He didn't he's not really interacting, he's just watching, and so he gets seized and thrown in, and then we're given this this uh period called the thousand years or the millennium. And so if you uh if you were with us on Sunday for the sermon, Jonathan did a very good job of concisely defining this. Um But Jonathan, you know, for Cliff Notes version, what is the millennium and uh how does it come into play here?
SPEAKER_01So a a thousand years is what the millennium represents, and the debate is is this thousand years literal or is it symbolic? Because the thousand years communicated on in in Revelation chapter 20 speaking of a kingdom where Christ will reign on this earth and Satan will be bound. And so consequently the nations won't be deceived by him, things will get better, and the people of God will reign with God here on earth as he currently reigns right now in heaven. So the question then is is this a literal or a symbolic thing, this thousand-year reign? Um the three different perspectives we talked about were aw millennialism, post-millennialism, and pre-millennialism. If you're trying to figure out how on earth can I remember what all that means, remember those are prefixes that go before millennium. So it helps you understand ah is the letter A means no. So no millennium. That perspective on the interpretation basically takes this as a symbolic understanding that right now Christ is reigning spiritually in heaven through the church here on this earth. Satan is already bound, a millennialist would argue. That's why the gospel continues to advance and he can't stop it because the gates of hell won't prevail against the church. So uh millennialists also see the church and the New Testament intertwined as one, essentially. They don't make a distinction between Israel's promises and the churches. Uh so therefore, that thousand-year literal millennial reign on this earth uh doesn't need to be taken or understood that way. That's their perspective. Post-millennialists on the other side believe that Jesus will return after the millennium, post-meaning after. So there will be a thousand-year reign on this earth, but that thousand years is symbolic, doesn't have to be literally a thousand years, but it's symbolic of a long time. And a post-millennialist believes that Jesus right now is reigning in heaven, but he reigns through the church, the salt and light of this world. And over time, the church will have the impact on the world to bring this millennial kingdom symbolically here on this earth, where uh the will of the Lord is being done on earth as it is in heaven. Things get better, in other words, and the values of the world continue to fall in align with with uh God's desire for this world, things get better, and then Jesus returns uh to judge the world and establish the new heavens, new earth. Uh, premillennialism is pre-prefix, that means before, so before millennium, and it just means that Jesus will come before the millennium. And this perspective is the most uh novel between the three because it believes the millennial kingdom then is literal, that Jesus will return to earth and literally reign on earth uh in Jerusalem for a thousand years with all of his people, and then at the end of that time, then he will uh ultimately judge the world and establish his new heavens and new earth. So those are the three perspectives. There's a differentiation we could get into there with whether with a rapture or not, but but that those are the three perspectives.
SPEAKER_02Well, and uh as we're thinking about this, because one of the things that has always been kind of uh um something that that bothers me is the question of why we why we so deeply theologize this kind of stuff, right? I mean, you consider that even I mean you made that statement now, all these are sub are prefixes and things like that. It's like we m we make these terms and categories that are so crazy complex, and and I think about first century reader, I don't know that they're discussing pre-post millennia millennialism and things like that. I mean, one of the statements that you made in the sermon, which is true, is that the thousand years is not mentioned anywhere else outside of the the place where it says a thousand years is a day of the Lord and a day is like a thousand years, and so um and so this this idea of it is not super emp emphasized um outside of these six verses here. Um and so why one question that that springs to mind too is why then why then um uh what is the purpose of this? Because you know, we've spent the for the previous 20 chapters of of Revelation talking about the buildup and the tribulation. I mean, you think about that, there's a thousand years here, and we've spent the other seven years in like ten chapters. And so why why is it that uh what why should we understand this that there is a millennium at all, or why why this this concept of Christ coming and having another end after this first end as as it appears to be.
SPEAKER_01I think it's really important and the reason why it's there, and the biggest picture, it's obviously all for God's glory, but as far as in a in a practical reason, why does this matter? I think this is the period of time where God will fulfill his promises for Israel. That that is a traditional premillennialist answer, which I would be one, is is that this thousand years is critical because without this thousand year earthly reign, many of the old testament promises given to Abraham, to David, uh, and these promises that have been given for a land and a people and a kingdom, those things won't come true on this earth without that millennial kingdom. That's the that's the space, if you will, where those promises come to fruition. Also, where Romans 11 speaks of an awakening that will happen in Israel, most premillennialists see a lot of it happening once again, those promises being fulfilled, it's all integral to this thousand-year kingdom. So I I think that's that's a huge part of it right there. Um also the promises to the church, because we're told that we're gonna reign with him and judge the world and do these things. Um, there has to be this period of time where that happens uh before the permanent eternal state, which is the new heavens, new earth of Revelation 21 and 22. So to me, I think there's a lot of good biblical grounds to believe in a literal earthly kingdom for a thousand years. And I will also point out there that even though a thousand years uh is not mentioned, like you said, this period anywhere else in the Bible, the idea of years is always understood to be literal, though, in the Bible. That's the also found. I read that in commentaries that if you study just years and you know, when that's being described in the Bible, everywhere else it's understood as literal. And so it would also be interesting if right here at the end in Revelation it was then suddenly understood to be symbolic.
SPEAKER_02So when it comes to the idea of the millennium, what the most important thing, I think, as I'm interpreting this, is what you believe about Israel and the church. I mean, because we we spend a lot of time focusing on the timelines here of of when it happens, but ultimately it comes down to is God fulfilling his promises to Israel? Um and if you believe that, uh if you believe that based on some things like like some of the parts of Romans where the that um the the church is Israel, right, that will impact how you how you define this and how you you understand it. And if you believe that Israel is Israel, which is the 1948 established nation that was re-established, um that that's Israel and it receives the covenant promises separate from the church, that's going to create a different kind of interpretation for it. Um, you know, when when we talk about personal kind of uh areas on this, I know Jonathan, you've made the statement that you're uh pre premillennial. I tend to be premillennial, but I also tend to be amillennial. Like I have I I kind of tend to bounce between the two. And a lot of that's just because of the historical aspect of it. The fact that, I mean, we've had 2,000 years since all this occurred, all these prophecies came together, and so it's a it's a curious thing to watch throughout history how there there are a lot of things that seem to point toward the Antichrist and toward what's going and what direction that's going. Um I will say this also that um when you're when you're thinking on the different theories here, it makes more sense why the Catholic Church um makes such a big deal about the universal church if they're amillennial, because of what that means is is that idea of the saints reigning, co-reigning with Christ, that's part of what they conceive is happening here, is that Saint Jerome right now is being a co-reigning person alongside Christ, even now. Now, is that biblical? Uh not really. But uh to me it that was kind of helpful of as a clarification of okay, maybe that's part of the reason why the Catholic Church takes that dogma of the universal church. And of course, Stephen, you take the um the pun version of it. So what what's your your what's your millennial theory?
SPEAKER_04I'm more of a like Jonathan said in his sermon yesterday, a pan millennial. Everything's gonna pan out somehow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I mean and ultimately, you know, Acts 1.7 does say it's and you know, you'll not buy you will not know uh oh gosh, I'm losing it. It's not for you to know the times of the epics by which these things will happen, but then go be my witnesses in Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria into the ends of the earth.
SPEAKER_01It's worth noting though, when they when it said that, it what was the time he was talking about? It was the time he would reign on earth. And just throw that out there just to double down, because they said, Jesus, will you start reigning now? And he said, It's not up to you know when, not if, but when, because he will.
SPEAKER_02Well, so here here's another question. So we we talk about the part of the role that the saints are gonna have here in the millennial kingdom, and it's the statement that they're gonna reign alongside Christ, and this is this appears elsewhere in the New Testament. So the question that I have is how if everything that we're doing in heaven is worship, and then they make this statement that co-reigning with Christ is part of that worship, how do those two concepts come together? Because generally, I don't think we think about worship as exercise of authority. And so, how do how do you understand that, Jonathan?
SPEAKER_01Well, because you worship through your service, because we're we're called priests in that passage. We're also gonna be reigning as these priests, uh, as servants to the Lord, as as ministers. And so what that really means is you worship God through your service. And to put it in a more practical word, I think you're gonna worship Jesus through working for him, through doing things. Like in in heaven, I believe this to be in the kingdom, the earthly thousand-year kingdom, and then in the eternal new heavens and new earth. We're gonna have jobs, we're gonna have things to do. And uh, just as today I can worship the Lord through the way I work and that Colossians three mindset that I work uh as unto the Lord and I worship him through my work, I'll be able to do that as well in the kingdom, uh, the earthly kingdom as well as the eternal kingdom, new heavens and new earth. So I think that's your worship is expressed in more ways than just song, I guess is my point. And that's true today, but I think that's gonna be true for heaven as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think uh you think back to um the way that Jesus responds to um the centurion uh in in the one of the gospels, where he makes that statement of uh when the centurion comes to him and says, Hey, can you heal my son? And then he says, Well, let's go to him, and he says, No, I'm a man who's under who is in authority, who's under authority. Uh, and I know that whatever it is you say will happen will happen. Um, and then Jesus makes that statement, I've not seen anyone in Israel with more faith than this man. And so I I see echoes of that here, of this of the the church and the saints practicing this version of faith of being people still under the authority of God, but exercising their authority by the one that's above them. And so it's a it's a it's a nature of of not really authority by control, but authority by obedience. Um and so you the the uh uh one question that also comes through this is there's been a lot of stuff that's happened to um the landmarks of the world and different things. I mean, we talk you look back in the Bull judgments, the earth the sea ostensibly at this point has been turned into blood and the sun has exploded pretty much. And so when you talk about this thousand years after post-armaged, and another another piece of that being too that it says that the the hills and the mountains will have fled away, I think it was fled. Um they're gone. And so what kind of earth is this that Christ is reigning over at this point? Um, we we're not given much specificity there in uh verses one through six.
SPEAKER_01Well, there's a couple things, even on the sun. I didn't have time to mention this. This was in the previous week's sermon, but if you remember at Armageddon, when there's that proclamation that it's time for the other supper, for the great supper that's coming through the Armageddon, and he's calling the birds in, we're told in verse 17 of chapter 19, then I saw an angel standing in the sun, right? Even that was our first note, I think, at least to my knowledge in the text, where you're like, okay, hold on, but didn't something bad happen to the sun earlier? So you don't get all the details between those, but it what I think is implied in that text, and you see it once again in chapter 20, is that God does restore some of these things because he's not done with the present earth yet. Um, because there's going to be this thousand-year period where people will live on this earth, there'll be other nations, other groups, and obviously uh we will live and reign with him in glorified bodies there in the holy land. But I think ultimately these things that have been undone will be put back together at least to an extent. There's a there's an implied, I think, prosperity in the land. Um, the sea itself, like obviously the the water and the sea seem to come about, and the sea is not, it's not until Revelation 21 that the sea will be no more. Right. So what you really see is is in Revelation 21 and 22 is when the natural order per se gets completely unraveled.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, because at some point time was gonna cease to exist. Exactly. So ostensibly, with there being a thousand years and with there still being a sun and the heavens and things like that, is that time is still going to be taken away. Um and so I believe it. It's an interest interesting thing to try to think about because also the question of who is it that they're reigning over and they're having authority over. I mean, are they human beings? Are they something else? Are they angels or it has to be people, I think.
SPEAKER_01I mean, because the idea is that there's other nations out there, there's other people, because we're told. Ultimately, it that's what Satan does is he draws them from the four corners of the earth, which also implies that it's the whole world, just as the Antichrist went for this worldwide empire. Now you see the devil essentially doing the same thing. So there are people, there's an implied, I think, repopulation of the land that happens over those thousand years. I also think with Isaiah 65, that passage I read uh on Sunday morning, it talked about the prosperity of the land that that people will live longer is what's implied there in Isaiah's prophecy. So there will be people. You know, I don't know how many, it just says there's going to be a lot right there in in Revelation 20, but a lot can happen over a thousand years, and there will be people, and there'll be people in opposition to Israel's reign with Jesus on the throne.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, it is interesting to think about that too, the the idea of Jesus being here and present and they're side of authority with a rot with an iron iron rod. And I mean, even the opposite the thought that even if he when he is here, um people will still sin and people will still come re rear up to rebel, which is what we see there starting in verse seven. And there's a there's an interesting statement there um in uh let's see, where is it? Uh I can't remember which which verse it is. It makes the statement that Satan must be released. Yeah. Um so what what it what is what does that mean? Like what why it why must must Satan be released? Yeah, it's it's in verse three. Yeah. And it says after that, he must be released for a little while. Um so why not keep him in jail? I mean what I mean, what do we what do we think about that?
SPEAKER_01Well, he ultimately has to be released to be destroyed, and and so that's why he's gonna be released, is to be permanently put into the lake of fire. But but even the better question then is, you know, why this whole thousand years? Because because if he's gonna be destroyed anyway and he's just being put in a hole to then be let out to be thrown in the lake, why not just put him in the lake of fire to begin with? That could be a natural question, and it's fair. But I think that's why it also gets into what I was saying earlier, just about the uh covenantal promises for Israel and how a lot of these things I believe will come to fruition over those thousand years where God will keep his word. So it's necessary during that time, I think, where God chooses to say, Satan, get out of the way for a while while I fulfill my word and do these things. And then after he's fulfilled every promise that he has given, he'll release Satan, and then he's gonna fulfill those last promises, which is to destroy Satan, to judge the world, and the last enemy to be defeated will be death, which we see that next week with the new heavens and new earth.
SPEAKER_02Well, and uh one question I have is we last week we talked about Armageddon and the big horde of people who got who got slaughtered. Uh so at this point they're in hell, right? Or or at least in the in Hades. Maybe not necessarily the lake of fire, but that could be the lake of fire. Uh not yet. It doesn't.
SPEAKER_01I think that that happens at Great White Throne.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And so uh, you know, that they're they're there. You also have the people who come back, it's it's kind of hard to tell whether that's the 144,000 or if it's people that died particularly during the tribulation, or if it's the whole, the whole uh the whole group of the saints. And then there being another uh, I guess another heaven during that time where people who come to who are born and believe during the thousand years then would go to heaven. It's just that it it's hard to try to get all the timeline things down met and test.
SPEAKER_01There's some unknown with the uh with the millennial saints that will come because it it could be implied, I mean one would expect, especially with Israel in that time, where people will come to know Christ as Lord, then they'll die a normal physical death during that that millennial kingdom, and they will receive a glorified body. But when does that happen? There's different theories on that, and it is where it gets a little muddy. Um it will happen, but that first resurrection, I think, in the biggest sense, it's saying all of those who avoid that second death. That's who the first resurrection. So in the text, what we see there on the front in the millennium, I think it really is pointing towards, though, is obviously it's explicit that the martyrs of of the tribulation are amongst those that are rising from the dead, because it says that. But then it says, uh, it says, where is it? Uh it basically leaves it uh unknown fully who the rest of them are. I'm looking for the verse there. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended, so that's the the other side of it. Uh but where did I go back? Go back. Uh verse 4. Then I saw the thrones, the seat on them were those to whom the authority to judge were committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded. So this is the martyrs of the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, and this is the part. And those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. So that the group right there, there's uh some different interpretation on who that might be. That that could very well easily be understood as those who are living, like you said, the 144,000, uh, the the Jewish believers that are then taken off into the mountains and hidden uh on eagle's wings. We talked about that before. Uh in any of those tribulation saints that made it out, that they too have their bodies transformed in that moment. Um so it but it seems that at that moment everyone basically joins the party for the millennial kingdom. That's what they're trying to get the idea of.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, until the until the second deception. Until the second one. Yep. Well, and and on that second deception, you have um these nations, uh Gog and Magog, which, you know, some people will try to point that to an actual geographic region. Realistically, it's just some it's a symbolic region or a region that doesn't exist yet because we're not a thousand years in the future. Um and so it you see a group you do see two groups of people there though, because you still have the uh camp of the saints and the beloved city. So, I mean, that this is all still happening in the timeline where you have all these forces coming to besiege that one place on the planet. Um, but then again, just like Armageddon, the whole thing gets up upended and Satan gets thrown thrown into the uh lake of fire and sulfur is where his buddies already are. So I mean it's uh again, it kind of seems anticlimactic, but also it speaks to that um to that power that Christ has over it. And I mean what why do you think we struggle so much on these things to to understand the millennium, to understand the nature of our our humanity during that time, the order of by which these things are gonna happen. I mean, what why is it such a struggle for us, do you think?
SPEAKER_01Well, because God left it that way for us. I mean, I think I think it's we've got to rest in the fact that uh, like I said yesterday, there are some differing viewpoints on this that that you can split hairs on and be okay. It's okay not to be in a hundred percent agreement of some of the the order like you're saying of these things. Because God clearly left it that way where there's a little bit of mystery there. Um I think there are some things that are not mysterious. You know, Jesus is gonna come, he is going to destroy Satan, the Antichrist, the false prophet. Uh He will reign, whether you believe in a millennial kingdom on this earth or just immediately go into the new heavens and the new earth. He will reign and we will reign with him uh in glorified bodies. We will be resurrected, as Christ guaranteed that. Uh same thing with judgment. I think that's something that we all have to get our heads around that yes, it's gonna happen, uh, and it happens before he makes all things new. So there's there's concrete things, I guess is what I'm trying to say that that we should take refuge in what we absolutely know. And everything I just said, we absolutely know that's gonna happen. Um but why is it hard on some of this other stuff? It's seemingly because that's what we were left with, you know, in that sense where there are some differing opinions. I think the best thing you can do is study it, uh, read on these things and come to a place of conviction on a personal level through the Holy Spirit who gives you peace, uh, and and rest in that. Um, because even though I'm I have a pretty firm conviction on these things, I also still honestly hold it a little open-handedly, acknowledging that there are all millennialists who are way smarter than me that that have come to that conclusion and post-millennialists and all that, and it's okay. Um, I don't have anything to prove, in other words. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, and and um we uh we then at the end of this passage come to the great white throne judgment, and and so in this, we and I uh you and I were talking off off air about this, but you also made mention that there's a second judgment called the Bama seat judgment, which is and that one is the judgment of the righteous. Correct. But um so the the one of the issues being that the Bama seat judgment is not mentioned here. Correct. Uh here here it looks like everybody who goes through here is uh going the wrong way.
SPEAKER_01It's the wrong line to stand in.
SPEAKER_02So how do we I mean and I guess maybe that's maybe that's the answer to it is that the point of this part of the passage is not to talk about the the further the further uh judging of the deeds of mankind, but rather the the initial one, the sheep from the goats. But even but even then there's no sheep, but they're all goats. They are I mean what what what what are your thoughts on that about why why at this point that there doesn't seem to be any focus on the good side of the judgment?
SPEAKER_01Well, it's because the great white throne ties in directly what to what preceded it. What preceded it was the devil and the rebellion he led. And so the devil and the rebellion he led ultimately led to the judgment that they received, which is to be put into the lake of fire. So it it finishes that thought. It also finishes the thought that that from the resurrection that got left open earlier in the passage, because on the front end of the passage, it was all about reward. It was talking about blessed are those, blessed and holy are those who receive the first resurrection, which is all of the redeemed, regardless of chronology and how we want to talk about when it happens. All of us that are in Christ, we receive glorified bodies. But then you see death and Hades spit out the bodies for everybody else, and then they're judged. So it's finishing the thought, I guess, is I think why it goes to that and it doesn't mention this other other judgment seat of Christ for believers. Um, it's not explicit in the book of Revelation, that judgment seat of believers, which also leads to the question then when does it happen? I don't think it happens at the great white throne. I think those are two different things. We're spared from the great white throne because of Jesus. Um, and when it happens chronologically is a little bit of a debate. Um, but that one's still a a judgment ultimately of celebration, really, is what it is. Because if we're not gonna receive condemnate condemnation uh at that seat, then what we're gonna receive is praise and rewards. You know, it's the well done, my good and faithful servant, and it's receiving the crowns that that are due to you for the treasure that you stored up for yourself in heaven. So it's a celebration, is what it is, where this is all condemnation. So the two aren't gonna be put in the same picture.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. At this point, would you say like the people who are left that haven't believed, um are they beyond the point of grace at this point? Like if they decided they want to believe all of a sudden, would they be saved?
SPEAKER_01I would think they could. So it what's interesting is there's not it's because it's so short. Like all this is a thousand years and just a few, you know, verses, which is pretty crazy. Um, but yes, I don't think there's anything to go against the to go against that thought. Um, because obviously God offered his his uh the gospel there during the tribulation, and now Christ is reigning right there on earth. You also have tribulation saints who are gonna have family members and others, descendants that are gonna see you know what's happening. So I would hope and believe, yeah, that people will at that point. Also, I believe Israel awakens during that time. There's there's a there's a Romans 11 promise that all of Israel will be saved, which we don't have to go into all that. I don't think it means literally all, but it means a massive portion of them. And most pre premillennialists see a lot of that coming true right then, during this thousand-year reign, because they're seeing Christ with their eyes.
SPEAKER_04Because I would think, like, especially when when Jesus comes back to lead that slaughter, like right before I mean, just thinking of myself, I feel like I would go drop to my knees in that moment if I hadn't already made a decision.
SPEAKER_01The problem is, I think right there in that moment, is they will be judged. Like in when you're going backwards to Armageddon, because when he comes, that's after seven years of gospel proclamation, it's after the angel giving that final calling chance. Well, exactly, and after the angel gave the calling in in Revelation 14, offering the gospel, then he offered woes, you know, to them, saying, like, now you haven't listened, and now it's all going down. And and and so I think for those, they they will be judged in that place at Armageddon.
SPEAKER_02Well, and how does how does death and how do uh death and Hades give up or not how are they get thrown themselves into the lake of fire? Like that that was that's always been something that I've I've struggled to wrap my mind around, is that the place itself is thrown into another place.
SPEAKER_01Um, I mean here's the way I see it. I don't know if it's a hundred percent true, but I'll just so this is my opinion. So if there's other scholars out there, you can you can tell me if I'm wrong. Death symbolizes the body, that's what it symbolizes. It symbolizes the physical realm, if you will, will. Hades uh represents the soul, it represents the the spiritual realm. So when you see death and Hades spit up their own, you're seeing body and soul come back together, ultimately reunited for that judgment, and then the person is thrown in the lake of fire, which is the the permanent state, just as the glorified resurrected body will be placed in the new Jerusalem. But when he says death and Hades are also thrown into the lake of fire, it means it's done, like it's finished. Like we're gonna see in Revelation 21 that death shall be no more. So the last enemy to be defeated is death. Hades, like as we said, the pre-existing form of hell, if you will, um, no longer will matter. Now there's the eternal version of it of the lake of fire. So I think it just it's bringing to closure all things, that those things will be done.
SPEAKER_02Do you think um the lake of fire and new heaven and new earth can all see each other?
SPEAKER_01Well, there's that implied passage there that Jesus talks about. Um, but it's it's it's it's interesting to say whether that's literal or not, you know. So I don't I don't know. I can't speak that. I would I I would think that ultimately there's a there has to be an awareness of those in the lake of fire of what they're missing out on, but are they visibly seeing it the way that Jesus communicates right there? I don't know that for a fact, but I think they're consciously aware of what they're missing out on, um, and that torments them. The separation from God is the greatest torment that they're they're missing out on what what they know to be true and good now. Um so yeah, I I don't know though.
SPEAKER_02I mean it's kind of back to that whole idea of the bottomless pit though, right? Yeah. Like what you're what is experienced in hell is something that's so uncomprehendable to us. Uh I mean, to to have the absence of God's of any grace of God, of all all of his favor. I mean, and and sometimes I've thought about it this way, where philosophically, and we've talked about this before, where is it better to exist or not exist? I mean, I just don't I don't know that it's a it's a meaningful question because we don't know anything other than existence. And right um what we do know is the common grace that all of us receive from God of being allowed to live in this world and and have a thought and have a heart and have feelings and all that kind of stuff. And I mean it is it does seem that you you have it all compounded there and what hell is is I mean, there's still even a grace there of that they get to to be still. But even then that it's not it's it's hard to kind of balance out all of these things. And for some people, I know this becomes a major stumbling block because how the the question of how could a good God allow there to be an internal lake of fire and and all that. Um and you know, as we've talked about throughout this book of Revelation, it's not the expectation is not that he's unjust in what he's doing, but rather that he he is uh showing grace beyond what he has to and giving anyone a place in the uh in heaven with them.
SPEAKER_01And so he does everything that's necessary to save people from stepping into that lake. That's how you know he's good. He's done literally everything for that. And then even in the pictures of Revelation, there's pleading for people, you know, through the gospel proclamation of the tribulation and through all these times uh where there's this time of grace where where just believe, believe and and submit your life. So I think that's how you know he's good, is he's patient. He's so patient over and over. But eventually, we've talked about it that if he's just and he's righteous, then there has to be judgment, and that's just the the final ending, the revelation.
SPEAKER_02And for a large percentage of the human population, this is it. Like this is the end of the story. Um the good news is next week we still have a couple more chapters to to work on.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I also want to point out here, I didn't talk about this yesterday. Um, hell is hell. I'm not gonna say anything that's gonna try to step back from the severity of it, but I also think it's worth noting that hell also, I believe, will have varying levels of judgment. And this is a biblical idea that that in the same way that we will have varying rewards in heaven, we will all be in heaven in Christ, but but there will be differing rewards. The Bible's clear on that. We will all not have the exact same reward handed to us. In the same way, the Bible speaks to that of on the other end of hell, that if you're apart from Christ, you will be in hell. And it's not a good place. It's everything we're talking about. But there will be differing levels, I believe, of torment and and pain and suffering based on what you did. And there are lots of passages. I'm gonna try to pull up one real quick, if I can pull it up on my computer fast enough. Um, but there's lots of passages that support this. I'll give you just one if I can get it to come up in time. Uh, this is in Mark chapter 12, verse 38, and this is an example of Jesus. He says, in his teaching, he said, Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in long robes and like greetings in the marketplaces and have the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, who devour widows, houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. And then this is the key. Jesus says, they will receive the greater condemnation. So that's just one example of many. You can go research this yourself, where Jesus would speak to this of varying levels of condemnation that would come upon people. And it's pointing to this idea that yes, hell is where all the unbelievers will go, but there's also varying levels because God is just. And you see that even in Revelation 20 at the Great White Throne, we're told he judges based on what is found in the books, which the books are representative of all their acts. So I think that also hopefully, in a sense, brings some clarity and maybe even a little comfort. Because I think when we think of hell, we usually think of people like, say, a neighbor down the road who's Hindu, you know, that doesn't surrender life, but really nice person. And you're like, hold on, how could they be treated the same as Hitler? My answer would be, well, technically they're not. You know, yes, they would both go to the same place that is the rejection of Jesus Christ. They're going to hell. But I also believe the Bible's clear that people like Hitler are receiving something much worse. Yeah. And there is various levels of condemnation. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02Well, and obviously then there's also the unspoken question of um if you know that those people are there and exist, why are you hiding hiding this from them?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if you're really worried about them, maybe you should go talk to them. That's a good word.
SPEAKER_02I mean, because usually we we want to we want to shift the responsibility over to God and how mean how mean he is versus how lazy we are. And uh anyway, I d the this is always a hard subject to talk on when we talk about hell, but part of it, it's important because it's truth, it's there, and um, you know, it ultimately it demonstrates the justice of God, it fulfills it just as much as the the New Jerusalem, New Heaven. Um and I and again, our hope, friends, as you're listening to this, we don't want you to go there. We want you to go to the good the good places. And we do hope that as you are considering all these things in chapter 20, that you that you rewind a little bit, that even in the consideration of these pictures, ask back to who is the one that delivers you from this. Um where this despite of however you think the thousand years will play out and and how the lake of fire will be and how death and Hades go in and all that, have you believed in Jesus Christ and taken his righteousness upon yourself? Um, because that's the only met measure that's gonna matter at the end of the day. And and the the beautiful thing about it is that there is no amount of accomplishment that you need to do to get there. It just means it all calls for is accepting the truth. And and so we hope that you've heard it that way today, that you've understood that you've understood and and seen this truth that we've talked about, and that you prepare yourself for something a little bit uh nicer next week. And so, uh Jonathan Stephen, anything else for our listeners before we sign off today?
SPEAKER_04It will all pan out.
SPEAKER_02It'll all pan out. Yeah, thank you, Stephen. Well, friends, thank you for joining us today on the Citizen ATX podcast. We look forward next week to uh meeting with you to talk on Revelation 21. But for now, if you have any questions, any thoughts, anything like that, we invite you to direct message us at Austin Baptist Church on Instagram or at info at Austin Baptist Church.com. But otherwise, till next week, we'll see you soon on the Citizen ATX podcast.