Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Revelation_Directors Cut: Last Words
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"And they all lived happily ever after." There is something inside of us that desires a good ending to a story. All the classic fairy tales follow this rule to end on a high note with everyone living happy together forever. The story of Revelation is even better than a fairy tale because it is true. Although there is wrath and judgement in this book, the great promise that we get from God is that: "All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21). Join Matt, Jonathan, and Stephen in this final episode of Revelation_Directors Cut.
Hello there, friends, and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. Today is a momentous day of 14 weeks worth of content, of questions, of good times and laughs as we come to the last episode in our series, Revelation Director's Cut. We've been excited as we've worked through the book of Revelation, which talks about eternity and this felt like an eternity as we have tried to get down into the uh dark corners of every bit of this book. And so today with me in the studio, we have Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Howdy, Matthew. And also Stephen Vaughn. Hello, Stephen. Hello. And so where I want to start the conversation today is really a inside the music kind of kind of for you 90s VH1 watchers. So Jonathan, here's a question I have for you. Uh, what has the experience of have been for you of preaching the whole book of Revelation at one time during this season here at Austin Baptist Church? Because some who are listening to this may be pastors or preachers somewhere else. And so what what's been your experience with it?
SPEAKER_00It's been exhausting, I guess would be one word, and to be an honest word. It's it's tiring. It's the most tired I've felt through preaching ever. Um and I think there's multiple reasons probably for that. You know, I think there is a spiritual component. I think if if this book really does have that blessing that's promised to it, the blessed are those who say the word, hear the word, and keep the word. That means the enemy won't like that blessing and he's gonna work against that. So I think there's a spiritual component to that that's probably led to some of the tiredness. But I think also there's the pressure that comes with the book of you want to say it and say it well and say it clearly, not even just accurately, which is also a taxing thing of interpretation, but then how do you say it not just accurately, but then practically, you know, so that people can understand. So uh I would say tired, honestly, has been one word, but not in a whiny sense. It's also been rewarding. Um, one reason why I wanted us to go into that book and why I wanted to preach it was I wanted the challenge of it. So I think also I, you know, I kind of got what I thought I would out of it personally speaking, as far as preaching it. I knew it'd be challenging, I knew it would be tiring, but uh, but I'm also I think there's a sense of satisfaction too of having gotten through the book and for us as a church to tackle something that frankly a lot of churches won't touch. And I think that's something that's that's really that we can celebrate.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that I think that pressure to apply create application that is helpful and also dealing with that heavy burden of interpretation is why so often um studies of revelation kind of get off the rails. Um, because people are thinking, well, I I mean, I've got to figure this out. I don't really understand it myself, and so I'm having to now explain it to a group of people. Um and so I think, you know, as far as we look at over the the span of time why there are so many different interpretations of the way that Revelation works, I feel like there is that pressure there. But I hope that you listener recognize that, you know, whenever um people like Pastor Spencer are working through preaching the text, um, there is a pressure there. And I hope that you'll pray for your local pastor as he brings the word, because that is a pretty constant pressure that's on the heart of a preacher, wouldn't you say?
SPEAKER_00Oh, for sure. But but I would also encourage other preachers that might hear this and other pastors to preach revelation. Because even though I kind of started with the Debbie Downer, it's tiring, it's also rewarding. And and it's one of those good things. It's like after you finish running a race and you're just tired and you're drained by it, but then also you're just really happy. You know, you have that you're you have that satisfaction that you completed that race. And so I think for preachers out there and teachers, Sunday school teachers, et cetera, that that might feel intimidated by it, all scriptures God breathed and it's profitable, including the book of Revelation. And I think it's important for us not to neglect it, but to lean into that uh and just know that after you get through the end of it, it's gonna be taxing to labor through it, but it will be rewarding. And I hope those that have been listening to the series and to this podcast series as well, that you've gleaned from it in some form or fashion, and it's been beneficial for you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. For many, this is like biblical leg day. There you go. We're having to do a part that you might not want to do, but that is good for you. So with that, let's jump on in then to chapter 22. As we c as we finish this, we are for those of you who missed last episode, we are now in the great beyond eternity, uh, the new heavens, the new earth. And so this is a relatively positive time, um, so to speak. And so, first question that comes to my mind, Jonathan, as I'm as we're reading this in chapter 22, is that we're we're shown the river of life, but we're also introduced back to a plant that was there at the very beginning, this tree of life. Now, one thing that sticks out to me in this um is the absence of one of the plants that was there at the beginning. So we have on on one side in Eden, you have all these rivers that are that are flowing out of Eden, and then you have the tree of life, and that makes and that makes sense also that this is the tree of life and not of life and death.
SPEAKER_00Because I think I think that's well, knowledge of good and evil and then life, yeah. In life, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So so the one that's not there is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And so what are we to make of that, of it being absent? That if we're talking about garden to garden, why is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil not no longer there?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's important also just to remind ourselves what you just said. There were two trees in the garden. Sometimes it all gets summarized into one. When people look back to it, they forget that there were two trees there that were noted. And the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the one that man was commanded not to eat from lest they receive death. And then there was the tree of life, and then after they ate from that tree, that's when God said, We have to kick him out, him and her out, lest excuse me, lest they eat from that tree of life, which would make them live forever in their broken dead state. And so, really, when God actually, you know, pushed them out of the garden, that was an act of grace. It was him saying, I don't want them to stay like this forever. And so by him pushing them out and then locking the gates and putting the cherubim outside, he's saying, I've got to fix this problem. That's what I'm gonna do right now. Um, so it's really a beautiful picture that he protected them from that tree. And then on the back end of Revelation, you see them return to the tree. And so the question of why is that first tree not there, I would argue it's because they already have the knowledge. They ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and that knowledge is there. Um, so the tree does not have to return. They have received that knowledge.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I agree with you because I mean we're not we're not talking about innocence returned, right? Like to an extent because we look at this sometimes at the at the Great Beyond as, you know, like um just a total restart of everything. But one of another big difference is that now there's a lake of fire there, not not that was not there before, or at least was not observable there before, and that those who those who uh committed the offenses to be there will be there for eternity. And so for them to not know what good and evil are, and then there to be a lake of fire, that would not make sense, uh, logically, at least. And so to me, it's like a promise fulfilled at this point of God had always intended for people to have this and to enjoy it forever. Because I mean, that's one of the things I think that we miss when we read that Genesis episode uh is that they were eating from the tree of life. Right, it was good. There was no problem there. The problem was with them rebelling against God. And and so, I mean, you I know you have a kind of some theories there.
SPEAKER_00Uh I don't know if you want to say I was fleshing out some of this pre-pre-show, if you will. We were talking about this with the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I was just thinking about that more that that that tree was provided in the garden to Adam, and obviously Adam and Eve were instructed not to eat from it, but by that tree existing, man is given a choice of God or self, you know, one or the other. But in a sense, that tree either way makes them aware over time of good or evil. It would have either if they would have resisted the temptation and they would have not eaten from that tree, they would have become aware through that victory over temptation, uh, they would have become aware of good and evil. Or in the case of which they chose, they ate from the tree and they became aware through sinning and receiving the penalty of death. And so so the the picture there is in a sense that that you know that tree either way was going to make them aware of good and evil. Unfortunately, it came through death and through through them separating themselves from God.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it is uh one of the things that that springs to mind to me is that may it may be that this tree of knowledge of good and evil wasn't a magic tree or anything like that, is that it was the it was the only thing that was set up as do do not do this, do not choose this. And upon choosing that, that's when death entered in. But um, it is an interest interesting study, and I mean it definitely boggles the mind a little bit. Um but so yeah, keeping moving on then. Here in uh chapter 22, you have really what is a wrapping up of this eternity beyond of the new Jerusalem coming down to earth, and as you said pre-show, uh 22, 1 through 5 really kind of belong to chapter 21. And so as I'm looking at this, I I I look at uh 1 through 5 as kind of the last note. If we're if we're asking what does eternity look like, one through five really kind of gives that picture. And so the question then is why is it so comparably short if it if it's to the end of time? I mean, we're beyond the end of time, we're into eternity. Why are we only given five? And then if you're if you're also including in chapter 21, you know, maybe 20 verses um worth of information. Like what I mean, any any thoughts on why it would be so comparably short?
SPEAKER_00It's so people could sell a lot of books about heaven. That's why God was just blessing all the Christian authors out there for Christian living. Um, in all seriousness, I think I I mean, obviously, there's heaven is a topic we cannot fully fathom. And I think it goes back full circle to that 1 Corinthians 2 9 verse that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no hor no heart of man imagine what God has prepared for those who love him. So we can't fully fathom it. That's why a lot of chapter 21 was actually helping us understand heaven in terms of the things that would not be in it. You know, that's why God defines it that way. He gives us the things we do know, such as pain, suffering, death, and he says those things won't be there. Um but as far as the explanation of the things that will be there, we can't get our mind around it. So I think part of it, that's one reason why it's concise, is we literally don't have the words to fully fathom it. Um but then also on the other side of it, why I think it's condensed, is these aren't the only verses that speak of the new heavens and the new earth. In fact, most of the prophets, when you go to that topic of heaven and the prophets that are speaking of it in your old testament, a lot of that is pointing towards the new heavens and the new earth is what they're writing of. So actually, there is quite a bit of content out there. You just have to go to other parts of your Bible to go find it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, one of the things that that I I kind of surmise about it too is that we're we're we need descriptions of the intricacies of what the lake of fire is gonna be like. But with with heaven, it's like sim uh less is more to an extent that a lot of the the problems and the details that we worry about in this world, we just won't worry about it anymore. And and and we we are given you know what the focus is. That it's the I mean you can look at the last the the uh uh verse five, and night will be no more, they will need no light or lamp of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, the the thing by which we see everything, to kind of take one from C.S. Lewis, yeah, uh and they will reign forever and ever. So I mean we're we're given um enough. I mean, the the fact that he'll be there and all else will be made right. And I I just I think you know it may it makes a makes a difference to me that we don't need as many words as I would tend to use to try to explain anything. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Do you think that there would be like time travel implications of that as well? Like if he were to tell us certain things that it then changes history, and so he knows that, so he doesn't tell us certain things. And like because I think of even there's random questions that come up sometimes of like if Jesus knew everything, if he had access to an eternity worth of information, why didn't he tell people how to build bridges and houses and how to heal certain diseases and stuff like that?
SPEAKER_00Well, he is gonna heal all diseases and all those things, and he is telling him telling us how he's gonna do it, because he actually says, I'm making all things new. And so he he actually says exactly how he's gonna do it. It's through his atoning work that he did in his first coming and then through his triumphant return in his second coming. Um, but the mechanics of it, like how's it all play out? We're told that Jesus upholds the universe, Hebrews 1.3, by the word of his power. So right now, Jesus speaks and things are moving. Our earth is turning right now because Jesus just tells it to turn. Um, and so there's part of it too, like the mechanics of it. He doesn't have to explain those things because he's not confined to our own limitations. Like for a lot of us, we're like, well, like how's he doing? It's like, well, because he's Jesus. Like he doesn't have to like draw up blueprints and he doesn't have to do these things. Um so I don't know. I don't know if that totally answers the question, but that's one thought I had.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, and you could also it becomes kind of relative, right? Like, well, why didn't he tell us how to build bridges? Well, why didn't he help why didn't he teach the Romans to build hovercraft? It it does, I mean, there is this journey of human exploration and discovery that that's part of us being in the made in the image of God is innovation and invention and learning and respect and awe of nature. And so to create an a reality where where there is nothing to do is not is not biblical. In fact, when you look at where is where is the place where nothing is happening, it's hell. Like Lake of Fire is a place where they're just hanging out, whereas the last the last words of verse five, uh, and they will reign forever and ever. We there will be good work happening in heaven, and so we'll this this cycle of building and discovering and working together will continue.
SPEAKER_00Because it's part of our Imago day, being in his image, is that we are, while we are not the creator, we're made by the creator and we're made like him. And so we create because we may we're made in his image, and there's great satisfaction even to this day when we make things. You know, when you if you build something with your hands, or if you build a business plan, or if you work well and you clock out at the end of the day, there's satisfaction in seeing what your hand has accomplished. And one day we'll still have that satisfaction, but it'll be enhanced because there'll be no more thorns and thistles that that pollute the land. And so I would agree with you for by God actually letting us, in other words, problem solve today, there's actually great satisfaction that comes in that by seeing you know God work through you to bring good in this earth on this earth.
SPEAKER_02As a baseball player, I think about it putting the barrel on the ball. Like there is just something sweet about the way that feels when you hit when you when you finally all the practice, all the work, right, and you finally hit it perfectly. You could say the same thing if you're shooting a three uh three-pointer basketball and you hit nothing but net is just satisfying to watch to run. So anyway, I think that might be helpful in people understanding that the work. But for time travel and stuff like that, I don't I don't think so. Yeah, I don't buy it. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't buy time travel. I had another time paradox kind of question as well. Yeah. If it's eternity, are we in one moment forever?
SPEAKER_00Or are we are we in an eternity worth of moments that constantly I don't think it's I think this goes back to the talk of time, you know, as a whole, which we talked a little bit about last week, but even using chapter 22 as a good example in verse 12, it talked about or excuse me, verse what is it, uh two rather. It talks about the tree yielding its fruit each month. So there's time and there's fruit that's being produced over and over that we are being satisfied by. So uh I think heaven is filled with a bunch of moments that constantly go together in some substance, some resemblance of time as we understand it today. The difference is there's not a bookend to it, it just goes on forever, uh, and we're joyful in it. We get upset when time doesn't move a lot of times. Like right now, people might even be watching the clock on this podcast. One of these guys gonna move on. We gotta get off this topic. But they're saying still, time is constraining this, you know. But time is an enemy here where then it's it's not, it's gonna that barrier is gonna be gone.
SPEAKER_01So it's probably not really routines or anything like that in heaven.
SPEAKER_00I think there'll be routines. I think there will be, guys. I think there'll be rhythms of work, and work is a rhythm. Um so I think I think there will be routine, absolutely. I think there'll be a lot th a lot of things that are more common to what we know today than we realize. And I do think there'll be rhythms to life because even you look at worship, we talked about that a little bit last week. Like even worship and songs and corporate worship, there's a rhythm to that, you know, literally rhythm to a song. You know, how do you sing a song? And then how do you pull people together to actually do that or to complete a project together or to rejoice together or to eat together? You know, those are all things that take place in moments. So I think heaven's gonna be full of moments and rhythms, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think the answer is yes. Because like it is, it is get beyond kind of conception. And I mean, you're you're absolutely right. You'll have seasons, you'll have rhythms, but it'll be beauty and not degrade. Exactly. We talked about last week. And so keeping moving here. Um after verse five, then you move into what's kind of the put the PS, I guess, of the book of Revelation, the postscript, um, that John takes some time to close it down to hear from Jesus on on his intentions of what to do with the book. Uh and you brought up in the sermon on Sunday that that part of uh apocalyptic prophecy that it's not always given to the writer to allow it to go out, like in in Daniel, where it says seal these things up. Right. But here, interestingly enough, I believe this is the only one of the four of the five books that John wrote that he actually signed his name to. Um because I mean, even in the book of John, and I I'm of the I'm of the belief that he's the beloved disciple because he doesn't want to bring himself into it. Right. That he's that he that out of humility he doesn't want to be put on a pedestal. And then in uh first through third John, I believe he refers to himself as the elder and not and I don't think he writes his name as John.
SPEAKER_00He didn't want to share his name, but he did want us to let us know that he beat Peter to the grave. So there was a little bit of pride in here. A little bit of pride in there.
SPEAKER_02I'm not saying I'm not saying I won, but I'm not saying I lost.
SPEAKER_00I won't say Jesus loved me, but I will tell you I got to him first. I got there to that grave first.
SPEAKER_02I mean, should we is there anything we should make uh of of why he felt the need to sign his name to this book?
SPEAKER_00It's validation. It's it's it goes to the authenticity. So in this 22nd chapter, also Jesus signs it as well. You know, he says who who he is. Um, and so I think it's that stamp and letting them know it's from John and it's from Jesus, because this is some 60 years after the resurrection, uh, is when this is all happening, and John is the most influential Christian on planet Earth at that point.
SPEAKER_02Definitely the only apostle still. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00That's what I mean. He's the last man standing. So there's there's great credibility and validation that it's coming from John, like you said, the one whom Jesus loved. Uh so I think absolutely there's a there's a great reason behind that.
SPEAKER_02You then have John begin to worship the angel that he sees because he's just so overwhelmed. But there's a the and we've talked about this, it's happened earlier in the book as well. Um, and so we covered that the that idea of falling down as dead before these heavenly beings. But um the angel says something interesting here in verse 9 where he said uh he says, You must not do that. I am a fellow servant with you, and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book, worship God. And what strikes me in that is you have this angelic being, one of the ones that I believe if it's the same guy, same one, the same one that poured out one of those bowls of wrath, and basically he equates himself with equates the angel with John, with the writers of the Bible, and with all those who would keep the words of this book.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02And so I mean there are some implications there for those of us who keep the words of this book, I think. I mean, it it places a tremendous power in our hands, not of a not of a intrinsic to ourselves, but of that word in us. I mean, do you think that that's on on track online?
SPEAKER_00Well, I might even take it a step further. I think it shows the organizational chart in the kingdom is pretty simple. Like there's God and then there's everybody else, you know, and I think I think that's kind of showing a picture of it that all of the servants of God are being lumped together by that angel saying, Hey, there's him and there's us. Like there's there's the two different groups, um, which is a good reminder for all of us, even on this earth, when we try to differentiate ourselves into classes of Christians in different levels. Uh, in the the book of Revelation, you see the people that have the crowns and have the higher levels, they're the ones taking off their crowns, or in this case, this angel saying, Hey, we're just a bunch of nobodies, look into him, worship him. Um, so I think that's part of it. I think it also shows the the royal priesthood that is the saints, because like you're saying, you have this esteemed angel who's saying, Hey, we're all the same, which is a pretty bold thing for us as Christians, saying that through Christ in our glorified state, we will, like it said, reign with him. We're gonna be, we're gonna be co-heirs with Christ, and we will be part of a royal priesthood that will come to life right there in the new heavens and new earth.
SPEAKER_02It'd be like Michael Jordan saying, Hey, come be on my team. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That'd be pretty uh pretty uh to take it a step further because the Bible says that we will judge angels in First Corinthians six. So there's even that aspect of it too that you're seeing kind of come to fruition right there subtly uh in Revelation 22. But it it I don't think we really understand, and it's hard for us to fathom it until we get there. Um, of I guess that status that we have in Christ. Like we're nobodies, but we're gonna be somebody because of him when we're there, uh, which is a pretty powerful picture.
SPEAKER_02So you have a couple of places in here where uh where Jesus, you know, he speaks and and puts his own um his own signature essentially on this. Uh, but you have a very interesting statement then that comes in verses. Let's see, 14 and 15, where it says, Blessed are those who wash their robes so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. So we talked last week a lot about the heavenly city, that you have the these walls that are made with the precious stones and the pearls, and that those gates remain open all the time. But then you have this statement about some something being outside those gates. So what are we to make of that? Like as far as is it is it pure metaphor there that's talking about that that you know the lake of fire is just not in there, or that that lake of fire is there very present, but it just will never come into the city.
SPEAKER_00I take it largely as metaphorical the picture, but it's showing that there's two places. It's showing there's there's heaven and there's hell. I mean, at the core of it. Now, is hell right outside the gates of Jerusalem and that you could see it out there? I don't I don't think I would read into it that closely to say it's right there, but I think it's trying to give the picture that to get into the gates of heaven, yeah, you only come in because you've been washed, you know, through the blood of Jesus Christ, that we've been given that righteousness through that robe. And then outside of the gates of heaven, however you want to deem that, you know, uh where the place is, whether it's literally right there or it's often some place that cannot be seen, there is a place called the lake of fire. And and that's what it's trying to show us is it's the same picture that's given in Hebrews chapter 9, verse 27, that's a point of man for for man to die once, then judgment, and there's there's heaven and there's hell uh today when we die, and then for all of eternity, there will be the new heavens, new earth, and there'll be the lake of fire. And and the way you get through the gate is you have to be washed, it says, clean, and that comes through obviously faith in Jesus Christ. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02And I think it is, you know, again, it creates a problem sometimes where you have uh, say, LDS, where they talk about the outer darkness and this what hell, and they would point to something like this as saying, well, there's proof of that. But I do think at this point, one thing recognizing that John is the one saying this, that we're outside of the timeline, and it's and right at this point he's really just making general, generalized blessings and curses and um and and notes on things. Um, but then you also have a very interesting thing happen here in verse 16, uh, when Jesus speaks continues identifying himself because he's he said earlier, um, I'm coming soon. Uh, he calls himself the Alpha and the Omega. Uh, he also says, Here, I am the root and the descendant of David, which I think we could all understand is that you know the the totality of God's promise through the line of David, but then also the bright morning star. So for some, this might cause a little bit of a hiccup because there are elsewhere, isn't Satan referred to by that name of the morning star? Isaiah 14. Yeah. So what what what are we to make of that then? And why why would Jesus use this descriptor of himself when when talking when communicating through John to everybody about who he is?
SPEAKER_00Well, Jesus also called himself this earlier to the church of Thyatira. It was in chapter two, I think, uh somewhere in 28 maybe, he uh talks about to them that if they will just persevere, that they will receive the morning star. It's him. So he's actually kind of he built up to this moment in this book. But to answer your question, how are they both the morning star? I I would first answer it by giving a different word. It's like, how are they both a lion? Because if you think about in the Bible, Jesus is called the lion of Judah, and and he's uh described that there in uh Revelation 5, but then in 1 Peter 5, we're told the devil's like a lion, and he's also roaring around looking for someone to devour. So in that sense, you know, they both are like a lion, but how? Jesus is like a lion in that he's a royal leader, uh, and the devil's like a lion and that he's trying to eat and devour. Um, and so you get the same imagery once again of a star. Jesus is the bright morning star, but then we're Satan has that title that's given to him there in Isaiah 14 when he fell from heaven. Um, Jesus is the light of the world, that's what the picture's trying to communicate. And he's also connecting it to Numbers chapter 24, verse 17, where there's a prophecy that says that ultimately the scepter, the light, the ruler of Judah would come like that morning star. And Jesus then in John 8.12 says he's the light of the world. He is that star. And so there's that aspect, but then Satan, Jesus said, I think it's in Luke chapter 10, that Satan fell like lightning. So there's like a light that's actually associated with him as an angelic being who fell. Um, and he has a brightness, but I think it goes back to that same picture that he's a poor man's imitation. And it's and it's the same thing. You know, he's a counterfeit lion, he's a counterfeit star. Uh, but Jesus is the one true bright morning star, I guess is the answer.
SPEAKER_02And I think there is something to be made about what the morning star serves as, is as the coming of the dawn. And, you know, that's what Jesus, I mean, at this point in the book, Jesus is saying this. This is coming, I'm coming, and there is what that morning star does is it shows that. And and Satan would try to counterfeit that. And we saw it happen earlier in the book of Revelation. It just didn't he was he was a false he brought a false prophet for. And so uh it is, I think, a beautiful picture of what that hope looks like and that that certainty that that the dawn is coming. Um so then you also have another interesting construct here, uh, specifically in um verses 18 through 19, that I don't think you really see in many other places in the Bible. Um, but why it why is this book armed with a curse? Right? So, I mean, this is uh if you grew up watching you know Saturday morning cartoons, generally you associate this with Egyptian tombs and things like that. And if you interrupt this tomb, then you're gonna get a mummy coming after you or whatever else. So why, why, in at least in the New Testament, is this book armed with a curse?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's a very serious thing he's talking about. You know, he's talking about adding or taking away from the word and the and the prophecy, and we're told uh the spirit of all prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. We learned that earlier in Revelation. So really all of the book, all of the book is pointing towards the testimony of Jesus. And he's saying if anybody adds to that testimony or takes away from it, they're gonna be accursed. And and the reason why is by altering the truth, bending the truth, adding to the truth, taking away from the truth, you are taking away God's revelation of himself to his people. And it's such a serious thing that God is saying, this is how people are gonna know who I am, and this is how they're gonna know my plans for this world. So don't tamper with it. And if you tamper with it, you are tampering with God Himself because he says, This is my word for my people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and in that way, it's really not um outside of the norm in the New Testament because Paul does it in the book of Galatians where he says, if anybody brings another gospel other than one who has done, then he is to be damned or he's cursed. Then Jesus also says something similar where he says, if any of you were to cause one of these children to stumble, then maybe he should tie a millstone around his neck and throw himself into the sea. There is seen and there's a commonality here between all three of those of do not deceive others and do not block others from me. Um I think that that's something that we as a church need to take seriously about the way that we uh I say church as big sea church, that that what are we doing things to block the gospel from getting to people by our traditions, by our um by our preferences, by um our own prejudices, are there things that block that that we are putting in the way between the life-giving gospel of Christ and those who need it?
SPEAKER_00Um I think I think also we just have to humbly remind ourselves that this book is different than every other sacred book, because if if this gets into the hot take mode, but if you're talking about every other world religion, especially if you get into cults, you know, Jehovah's Witnesses, Book of Mormon, those things have been added to the Word of God in direct disobedience to this command here. And so we know it's not from God. And then same thing, even in you get into Islam, it's the same thing with the Quran being added. Uh, this is that's new revelation that allegedly is added to this book that came after the matter. And so sometimes people look at things in Christianity. And I remember I had a conversation with someone even not that long ago, about a month ago, asking if she was asking basically if she becomes a Christian, well, does that mean she'll have to rule out all the rest of the stuff out there? Um, and I said, Yeah, like I mean, you're committing to one or the other. Like you can't, it's in you can't put them together, it's it's not compatible. So I think in a world where everybody tries to make spirituality kind of a one size fits all, and you can just go pick and choose whatever. Jesus says you can't.
SPEAKER_02You're either you're either with me or you're not. And the and the opposite being true, too, that I mean you consider like the Thomas Jeffersons of the world that cut up the Bible and re-re-paste. I don't know if you know about this, but Thomas Jefferson's Bible, he had cut out all the parts that had stuff to do with the divine and then re-glued it back together so that it fit his deist worldview. Um and there will be some out there who take Christianity, say, I don't like what that says, so I'm just going to essentially cut that out. I mean, you made a statement in um the service uh yesterday similar to that of some people saying, Well, I don't like that, so I'm gonna tear that out of my Bible, at least ideologically, and not pay attention to it. Um I mean, and then sometimes add other things in or sometimes not, just insult and insert and insert your own things in there. So there is a question though to this um that I think is is kind of intriguing, though. Where does the boundary of speculation cross that line? So we made a meant we may mention earlier where there's a lot of interpretation that goes into the book of Revelation, and one of the reasons I think a lot of people are we'll just say it's scared to teach the book of Revelation is what's said here in verses 18 and 19. They don't want to accidentally produce some kind of interpretation or reading of the book that's incorrect and thereby call that curse down on themselves. So, what where do where would we see the boundary there of falling into what's described here in 18 and 19?
SPEAKER_00Well, not all speculation is good. I think it has to be informed speculation. So, so there's some things in the Bible that are not black and white crystal clear, like especially on the topic of heaviness, hence a lot of these conversations. It's okay to know the word of God, what is black and white and stated right there, and then based on that truth, come to a few potential speculative options, you know, ones that are reasonable and faithful to a to a true interpretation of God's word. So there's a difference between being informed, I guess, but even when you're informed, it needs to be stated and understood that it's speculative. So even like when we talk about interpretive things where we might give our opinion, that just needs to be stated that it's an opinion. Like I mean, there's a lot of other people out there that have preached revelation that would preach a lot of things differently than what I've said for the last four months, and that's okay. Uh specifically, we've talked about the rapture, you know, at length on this podcast. Yeah, yeah. There's there's a lot of opinions, and it doesn't mean that that you know, that somehow they're they're a heretic or I am. It's all of us saying, hey, based on the study of scripture, this is our informed opinion uh on this matter. So I think it's important to, I guess, differentiate what good speculation is. But then on the other side, I want to make sure there's clarity. There's a difference also in just misunderstanding something. Right. And and like you see a good example in Acts chapter 18 when Priscilla and Aquila pull Apollos to the side. Right. And Apollos wasn't a heretic, he just was ill-informed. He did not understand things correctly. And so actually, it was a great case study if you ever want to go read it. They pull them over privately, not publicly, and they don't shame him. They don't shame him, and they just privately correct him and just say, hey, we think you misunderstand this truth of God's word. And they explained it to him. And so, in the same way, sometimes, you know, people, you just don't know, you know, and then and you just need correction. It doesn't mean that you are sinning against God. It just means that you you are misinformed and misunderstand, and that's okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's kind of similar to the discussion we had about heresy earlier, where you don't fall into heresy, you choose to go into heresy. And I think that with 18 and 19, you don't fall into the uh one of these curses. Base both of these things are by purpose, by adding to the words of the book or subtracting from the words of the book. And that means taking authority where you don't have it. Um, and so really I think what this calls for mostly is just a humility and an open-handedness of I will hold to what is true and I will not hold to that which is subjective. Um and I mean ultimately in that way, I think God blesses the search for truth, this discovery, this desire to learn. And I think also what what you just said also speaks a word to us as believers at when we approach people from different religions, where you know, I I think the general way that people approach it is, well, they're wrong, and so we need to make them feel bad about how they're wrong. It's like what when has that ever worked in your life where someone told you you were wrong and that made and you felt good about that?
SPEAKER_00Really marriage will be hard for you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, you're gonna you're gonna have a time. But the but you know, you think about it, there there are aspects in these world religions that do demonstrate if all truth is God's truth, then the things that are true within them are worthy of saying, well, it's good that you believe these things to be true. And in fact, that's what Paul does in Acts chapter 16, saying, Hey, you have this altar to the I see that you're very religious because you have all these gods, and in fact, you have one called the unknown God. Well, let me tell you about him. He doesn't take time to say you guys are morons and you're worshiping your own passions and ascribing godhood to them. Instead, he's instead he commends, hey, you guys are very spiritual. We we probably ought to do the same. That when we when we approach people who are coming from different religions or even different uh different beliefs in Christianity, start from commendation, move toward correction. Don't start with slander and shaming. Because number one, that usually is just us posturing anyway, of how much smarter we are than somebody else. Instead, see this this is where that seek to understand before being or seeking to be understood. Um, I think that we'll find our ability to share the gospel will open up in a lot of ways. And that doesn't mean taking things that are not true and calling them true, it's discovering the that piece of eternity that God places in all of our hearts and helping people to understand we are on the same ground here, but our under we our understanding has gone beyond just what our human comprehension can be through the word of God. And so I don't know that that really necessarily applies here, but it's something that does spring to mind that when we're approaching people who come from a lot of differing viewpoints, having that kind of grace to to approach them that way. Um and I will say also I I I see in this also the the the warning not of applying different historical characters to different people in the book. I knew I knew of somebody who was certain that the Antichrist was Prince Charles. Certain. And even to the extent where he went to a middle school uh Bible study and was teaching that and telling them that Prince Charles was the Antichrist and he was gonna bring the end of the world. Now he's King Charles and seems pretty ineffective for the most part. So I mean it that there is a warning there of we got to be very careful what we ascribe is truth that's not truth. Yeah. Um and so then when we get to verse 20, you have the last words that Jesus says, Surely I'm coming soon. And like a lot of things in this book, I think we have to question why this as opposed to something else. Because Jesus could have said anything to his believers, you know. And a lot of times when we look at studies of last words, it a lot of thought goes into it because you know this is going to be the last impression that people are left with. So, what kind of tone and uh importance do you think um Jesus placed into the this particular statement of surely I'm coming soon to end the book of Revelation?
SPEAKER_00I think it's a word of comfort above all. I think that's the point. Um because obviously uh we didn't get to preach, I didn't get to preach so much on this, but if you go back to where we kind of started, we talked about the church that was receiving this. You know, we got right into the prophecy. We started with who was receiving it. We were in the churches of Revelation and all that, but it's churches in turmoil. It's tribulation, it's people are dying, blood is being spilled. Then you hear about this seven-year tribulation that's gonna come where much more blood's gonna be spilled, and it's just a really difficult, dark, you know, picture of just we're in hard times, and the book of Revelation says things will get harder, in fact, on this earth. But then there's that comforting word that I am coming soon. And I believe it's comforting, especially for the church, because I believe the church will be raptured and saved from that seven years of tribulation and from the wrath that will come. So there's that comfort of, I'm gonna come and I'm gonna take care of this, I'm gonna take you home with me. But for the church that's even suffering today, and for those of us that that you feel marginalized, you feel uh oppressed and many areas of our world persecuted, you just look to that text, you say, but he's he is gonna come. There's that, there's just that uh peace that comes with it. I think that's what he's trying to let us know as he was letting the churches of of all those that ended up dying right there in that previous generation, let him know that this isn't the end of the story. I am coming. Yeah, and take heart, take heart.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And does that connect to the fact that John chooses to end the book with a the word amen? I mean, what is what does amen even mean? Like uh Let it be.
SPEAKER_00Let it be let it be. Well, I mean that's agreement.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is, and I think it it's also a a when we talk about what a a curse is, right? It's it's saying, may this thing happen. I mean, you have the um the Greek concept construct of may it never be so, right? Like that's a that's the other direction, right? But what what this what this does and what the amen does in prayers and here in the book of Revelation is it it engages us that if we're going to say that, then that means that we are placing ourselves in that court. That we're not there's no half measures with an amen. It's a this is what I believe will happen, and and God may this may this be so. It's it's both hope and conviction wrapped up into one word. Right. And there's no other way that this this book could end, right? I mean, in in the book of the Bible in general, it's that this is this as you were making a statement ago a little bit ago about it's that this is a book of that there is comfort in this, there is sureness in this, there is the certainty of things hoped for and the sureness of things not seen seen. Uh I mean we we are given all of this wrapped up here with this closing of the book.
SPEAKER_00Well, because the the the knowing the future also reminds us of what we already have, because the kingdom already has come, and yes, it is still yet to come as well. And it makes me think of it made me think of Ephesians 2, 6 when you said that, that we've been raised up with him, and he seated us with him in the heavenly places with Christ Jesus. So, like right now, I'm told I'm actually am seated with Christ in a sense. Spiritually, I'm there with him, uh, and that my heart, my mind, my affection is already with him, and it's already been placed firmly in the security of heaven and in eternal places. And so heaven brings great hope uh for the future, but it also gives you really great uh great uh motivation, I should say, for today. And I think that's the point of the agreement is amen. So let's get to work right now, you know, because time is limited, things are hard, but Jesus is gonna come and solve these things, so these days are numbered. Let's make the most of them.
SPEAKER_02Well, and so with that, I mean, I think that's we're right here at the end of the book of Revelation series. How about that, guys? Yeah, we did it, guys. Yeah, super. So, do y'all have anything, any last thoughts before we sign off on the Revelation Director's Cut series?
SPEAKER_00I thought verse 21, when he says, Sean says, the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all. Amen. And it ends with that word, amen. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all. I was thinking about more about that. I didn't get to preach it much, but Jesus already told us that his grace would be with us even right now. And I wanted to kind of connect it with that thought and that great commission where Jesus tells us to go therefore and make disciples of all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And he says, Teach them to obey all that I've commanded you. And then he gives the promise there of grace. He says, And lo, I will be with you even to the end of the ages. So John gets to see the picture of the end of the ages, but where we are right now, Jesus says, I'm with you. Right. And so it's the same idea that the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all, that it's with us right now. And that's why John says amen, because he senses it and he knows it, and I hope you do as well, that you're listening, that the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is with you and it will be with you when he returns.
SPEAKER_02Stephen, anything? No. Um I think I I would like to say one more thing too, as to as to the wholeness of this, because I think it's one of the beautiful things about the Bible is that none of these books stands alone. Even as you're quoting from Ephesians and Matthew, um, I look back to John, the book of John, as the beginning of this story that John's writing. And John is not an unbiased guy. And in verse, in chapter 20, verses 30 and 31, as he's wrapping up his book on what Jesus did, uh, it says, Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book, but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. I hope that as you are considering the book of Revelation, the promises that are there, these are not promises that are that are offered out into the vacuum, but to you, listener, you individually, that all of us have this opportunity to be invited into the kingdom if only we would accept it. And this grace that's offered to all started there with Jesus and will end with Jesus. And so, friends, if you are not at this point a part of a believing community of faith, we would encourage you to go, connect, grow, seek to reach out to others with the same grace that you've been offered, the same story of Jesus that you that in which we're able to find life in his name. The book of Revelation doesn't stand as a book that calls for no action. It is all calling for action, and it calls for your heart and the hearts of those around you. And so I would encourage you with that. Let this book move you, let it motivate you, like we like Jonathan just said, and that as we go, that we'll see his kingdom come and his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So, with that, that is the end of the Revelation Directors Cut Cut series. Next week, we will be back with a new series here on the podcast. I believe we're gonna call it preheat. Uh, and so with the idea being we're about to go into the summer, so why not take some hot takes, start warming them up and dishing them out, right? But we'll be we'll be looking at some of the things that have been dominating the news and want to help prepare you for the conversations you're gonna find yourself in this summer. So, with that, friends, we hope you'll take care and we hope you'll tune in next week as we continue the Citizen ATX podcast.