Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
PreHeat: Gaza and Student Protests
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
If you have paid any attention to the news in the first part of 2024, then you likely have seen that Israel and Hamas (Gaza) are at war. The back lash to this war has been highly politicized from the very beginning. So how are we as dual citizens supposed to react to situations like this one. Join Matt, Jonathan, and Stephen as they open up our new series PreHeat.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillam, and we are glad that you are joining us as we are starting a brand new series called Preheat. As we're going into this series, what we're looking at are uh news items that have been boiling up here at the during the spring and that we suspect you're probably gonna find yourself in a conversation about this summer. And so with me we have Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. How do you Matthew? And then also Stephen Vaughn. Hello, Steven. Hello. And so we're gonna just jump right into this here because this is what has been in the news for the past several weeks and then ultimately the past several months. And it is the Gaza conflict and the subsequent protests that have been happening on college campuses. So I'm gonna give you a little bit of a 30,000-foot view. Uh Israel was attacked by Gaza by Gaza, specifically Hamas, uh about eight, eight or nine months ago. Um got uh the Hamas killed uh 1,200 uh Israelis and also uh kidnapped a large amount of them. I don't have that exact number with me. Uh and so then Israel got them back. They started attacking back into the land of Gaza and have uh enacted warfare on that area that's killed that's seen several thousands killed and with some of the hostages returned, but not all. Um then fast forward to the spring, as college campuses are getting into the test time, all of a sudden you start seeing protests boil up on all these different campuses like UCLA, Cal Berkeley, uh UT Austin, and most pressing for the news was Columbia University in New York City, where protesters not only protested, keeping people keeping people and specifically Jewish students from class, but also at one point took over a building, breaking glass in the building and uh disabling the uh college from being able to do its normal functions. And in fact, to this point, several commencements have been uh delayed or canceled as a result of the protests. So, where does this come into the play today in the Citizen ATX podcast? We're gonna ask these questions about the rightness of the pro of these protests and then how we ought to approach them. So, Jonathan, let's start right here. What's the right team? What side should we be on as believers as we approach the idea of the Gaza conflict and then these uh as uh proxy these protest groups?
SPEAKER_00So I will preface the answer by saying we we did jump into some of this on an episode back in October. So if you're looking for more content, we also talked a little bit about this when the attack happened on October 7th. But in short, I will say this. I do believe every Bible-believing Christian needs to stand with Israel. I will say that, and I'll double down that on that, even though that's an unpopular take these days. Uh, but God's word does tell us that he has plans for Israel. We're told in Genesis 12 that God will bless those who bless his people and he will curse those who curse them, and we're told to pray for the peace of Israel. Um, we know that we talked about this in the book of Revelation, Jesus will return to Israel and he will reign right there in Israel. We also know God has plans for an awakening that will come across Israel spiritually. Um so God has covenantal promises for that people, and with that people, there's also an attachment to that land. And so there absolutely is a a biblical implication with this battle, and with any time you see conflict in the Middle East, I believe it's wise for the church to stand with Israel because without Israel, there is no church. And so I I do believe it's wise for us to look at it from that perspective. Now, that being said, when you look into conflict that comes in Israel, of course there are human decision makers in the nation of Israel, just as there were all throughout the scriptures. And there's going to be leaders that are gonna make good decisions and bad decisions, and there's gonna be sins and failures. But when we're talking about just in the big picture of who ultimately should we ultimately pray for, stand with, and be alongside, it's it's Israel in this conflict. Now, when you look to the other side and you look at 30,000 dead Gazans, that's also from a Christian worldview. There are serious implications uh with that. We should be concerned about that, and we should care for the Gazans to the best of our ability, and we should uh certainly have compassion over that situation, also acknowledging that there are Christian brothers and sisters that are Palestinians. And so it's not as simple, in other words, to go to that first question of just, you know, who do you care about and who do you not? God cares about them all. And that's it, that's something that we have to establish is that God cares about every single person in the Middle East. But at the same time, we also have to be clear that God has unique covenantal plans and promises for Israel and for that land. And so, because of that, consequently, yes, as a Christian, we should come from that foundation that yes, we should be pro-Israel in the big broad context.
SPEAKER_02Well, then why why then do we come across this at like especially specifically these protests where you have a lot of evangelicals decrying it, saying, well, these things are wrong, these students should not do it, these uh these protests must end. Um I mean, where where is that part of the coming from? I mean, because I mean, are are are we actually are we actually condemning them for uh speaking a political voice or is it something else?
SPEAKER_00Free speech is something that's obviously given to us through the law. So I mean ultimately here in this country, praise God, we have the liberty to say what we want. Hence right now we're saying I'm saying what I want, and I don't have to fear any kind of oppression for that legally. So people absolutely, as Americans, you have an up you have a right to vocalize your opinion on things. The problem is there's also a blurring that comes with some of these protests. Uh one, that it's not always vocalizing your opinion, it's intimidating those who don't agree with you. Uh, there's also been a bending of the law where then it becomes trespassing, it's become destruction of property, it's become other greater issues, the intimidation of other people, including Jewish people on campuses, which none of that can be tolerated. So there are uh wrong things that I think absolutely have happened and are happening across many of these protests that as a Christian we do have to look at that and say, that's that's not right, you know, those things that are transpiring. But are people allowed to disagree with the Christian worldview here in America? Yeah. I mean, and really across the whole world. God gives us choice, He gives us a cognitive ability to make decisions, to come to convictions. But for the Christian, our convictions should be shaped by God's word. And so at the end of the day, that's where the foundation has to be.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it you know, the I think one of where we get to here is also partly method. And, you know, you see protest as a pretty common method of political action. Um started in the 60s, it's you know, definitely led up till now, and it's really not been confined to just one side of the political sphere. You've seen um anti-roe v. Wade uh organizers and protests carrying signs and doing marches and things like that, just as much as you've seen pride parades and you see other things like that. And so, you know, what one of the big questions we have to ask is is it biblically okay to protest? Is it something that if we are if we are trying to look to the Bible for direction, um is it all I mean, is it all right for us to do so?
SPEAKER_00The Bible does tell us that we must serve God and not man. So when when man commands us to do things that are unbiblical, that are wrong, uh, we do stand with God, and there's there's a uh there's a a righteousness that comes with that. You see, for instance, through an example of uh Daniel, you see it with Paul, with Peter, when they or in the book of Acts having to stand up for the faith, and authorities are telling him not to speak for the gospel, and they say we will. So there is a a position, our position ultimately is under God, like that we're gonna live for God and according to his word, regardless of what man says. Now, on the other side, there's also a call for the Christian to submit to the authorities here in this nation. Uh, and so it gets tricky when you get into that protest world of really what's your cause? Is it the righteousness of God or is it the preference of man? Like, I mean, that really is what I think a question that comes with it.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I also think that you have to the part of the question has to be what do you expect is gonna come out of this? Yeah, because if we're being real honest about what protest is, very rarely is it actually a kind of protest like what you see Daniel do, where they say, Hey, don't pray to anybody but the but the uh Shaw. And it's like, well, no, too bad. I'm gonna I'm gonna pray. Uh and and the uh and uh his friends when they said no, we're not gonna bow but before that that idol. I don't know that we can rightly call that protesting in the way that we see protests being done today. Because the way that we see protests done today don't actually say we are going to go make action. It's always make somebody else do it. Like we want the government to do this or we want uh the UN to do this. It's amazing to me how how much in the political sphere we're so afraid of our country making a decision in a movement and instead are waiting for all the countries of the world to agree on this before it's something that's right to do. And I mean it that but protest is like that, where you have a group of people who are getting together and saying, hey, this is what we want, so now you better do it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and the battle cry of protest modern day is never the righteousness of God, it's the false virtue of man. It's it's hey, I'm right, look at me, we need to do this, which gets into a lot of the commonalities that come with these protests. And it's it has to be sh you know shown and demonstrated that there's been so many of these in the last five to ten years where they have come from racial problems to uh LGBTQ uh protests and causes to now Israel conflict, different things. There's always a commonality that comes in these modern-day protests, and it's always a perceived oppressed group, a group that identifies as oppressed and with oppressed people standing up against the grand oppressor. And it's the same narrative, and oftentimes it has to do nothing really with what is being protested. It's just that people want to identify uh as a oppressed group and then have a revolution against their oppressor, which really also leads to now a lot of the same people that ultimately protest in every protest because it's not no longer about the cause. It's just I'm an oppressed individual, I'm all about oppressed people, so then any oppressed person that I see that's quote oppressed, I will stand up in rebellion with them, yeah, regardless of what they're actually standing for.
SPEAKER_02Well, and that doesn't ultimately help the people who are oppressed at all. I mean, uh you you think about a lot of these, a lot even to these uh pro-Palestine protests, um they're not doing a lick of good for actual Palestine. No. I mean, it it at most it's causing the government to drag their feet in doing what they're already, they've already been doing and will continue to do. Even to the the point that these protests are saying we need to we need our universities to divest from um Jewish interests or Israeli interests. Well, those things are gonna be just a part of billions of dollars of endowments already. It makes no sense. And it doesn't hurt the university.
SPEAKER_00It's those are money markets. Those things are gonna get bought up by other areas as well if you sell off new shares.
SPEAKER_02And the only people are gonna get punished are the presidents of those universities for allowing protests to get go too far. And realistically, you know, we one of the big problems that seems to come up a lot with protests is when they turn violent or things like that. And my feeling on it is that because you have a group of people who have struggled to find meaning in a in the world, you know, post-COVID world, all that kind of in so heavily technologized world, that then when you hit when they hit a protest and they finally think they're doing something and they realize, well, nothing is actually happening. Yeah. Well, if I throw a brick through a window, something will happen. If I set something on fire, maybe something will happen. I mean, it it becomes uh in my mind, like I'm thinking about in uh biblical context, when uh Elijah and the prophets of Baal are facing off, and the prophets of Baal are sitting there essentially petitioning their God to do something, he doesn't do anything, so they start cutting themselves and start dancing around like crazy people, and Elijah's just sitting there making fun of them, saying, Oh, maybe speak up. Maybe he's in the bathroom right now, or maybe he's taking a nap. And then ultimately Elijah's response to the true authority is your will your will be done. Show them that you exist.
SPEAKER_00And to your point in the Bible, the mob never really seems to do very good things. I mean, it's also the mob, the ultimate that crucified Jesus, and and there's the group think when you get emotive people together uh over things without accountability, without accountability, 100%, uh seeking to advance their own cause without actually consulting the counsel of God on it, um, it leads to bad things. And I think that's that's the point of all those things that we're going down the line on. There's all these different riots, protests, whatever you want to call it. Oftentimes it is the will of man trying to push his will upon the will of others, and it has nothing to do with the righteousness of God and his desire for them or this world.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So, I mean, uh, it sounds like for us, when we when we approach that idea of protest, the reality is it's probably not your best bet if you're trying to see some kind of social change or some kind of even if you're on the righteous side of something. Uh, I remember as a um as a teenager, uh our um one of our teachers showed us the film Inherit uh I think it's called Inherit the Wind, uh, but it's about the scopes trial when uh a guy got put on trial for teaching uh um about biological evolution, and it's a you know a liberal fairy tale because they they love it because it it makes conservatives look really bad. And you have but in that one, you have protesters coming out holding up signs saying they want to lynch this teacher in this small southern town. And it's like they may have understood that hey, we were trying to promote a biblical worldview, but they were doing it in such a way that was evil, and I mean you shouldn't be going and saying going out and protesting saying, I want this person hanged. Right. Um and so I and I think this is really part of a greater societal and Christian cultural move where we've moved more and more toward the idea of let's pay somebody else to do what we should be doing. I mean, we we've talked about this before, I think, on this podcast, the idea that the church has let go of this of being the center of the welfare and commu and uh and help and medicine for their communities and instead have paid other institutions and most m most notably our government to do it for us. I see this in the same in the same light where if Christians don't take action of seeing good change happen, of going out and serving those who are in need and those who who hurt, um why why do we think there will ever be any real real righteous change? Um and Stephen, I know that you had some thoughts also as to the the role of uh a lot of the technology on uh people's mindset through this.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, I mean for for one thing, TikTok plays a major, major role in everything right now. Um I mean, this group of kids that are protesting was the group of kids who grew up with TikTok. So they had they were the first group that had it in high school. Um so I think in some ways that that's kind of shaped some things. I think technology um as as helpful of a tool as it can be, it can also be an incredible hindrance. And so the outflow of communication so quickly at the palm of your hand um can just be dangerous. I mean, you can you can get so confused as to what is actually true and what isn't true, um, and unless you know how to unpack those things and look past the things that you're having to look past in order to form your opinion. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean well, and it draws emotions. Like I was on Instagram yesterday and I was I saw an account somehow it came across me. It was it was a couple guys that are posting from Gaza. It's like their whole account's about surviving in Gaza right now. I know, exactly. You talk and you talk about pulling your heart strings, you know, and all that stuff, because it shows, you know, there's living in rubble, uh, paying too much for bread, you know, doing a bunch of just difficult things and living in really uh horrible circumstances that every Christian would look at and not want that upon any person. And so as you get technology and images and these things, absolutely, guys, Stephen, I think you're right, that plays a key role because it emotively swings people. Um, and emotion obviously plays a role in our convictions, but this is where the Christian worldview, we have to be careful that we cannot be controlled by our emotion, also, because emotion plays a role in our conviction and our decision making, but so does our mind. And so you have to look at things with a sound mind, with judgment, filtering it through the biblical lens as you process images and storylines through an emotional uh perspective.
SPEAKER_02But that's where I think our arguments have have a real problem. So, like we generally, people who are coming from a biblical worldview and uh understand, hey, we are pro-Israel because the Bible is pro-Israel, and this whole conflict, you know, there's really not much of an argument that Israel is in the wrong for what they've done. And so when we look at that and we're arguing that, we are arguing it from a point of view that is um, you know, biblical, okay? And so then the other side hears that and says, Well, you're arguing against human life, and you're arguing against uh these who are poor, and there are they're they're taking from the poor what they already have uh and taking even their own their spot up in the land. And so you have people who are arguing about different things when really we are kind of arguing about the same thing. Like we we want, even from a biblical worldview, we do want I say that actually, let me let me back that up. Coming from a biblical perspective, we do want to care for the poor, the oppressed. And if it were up to us, I I don't think that we would be real excited about Israel attacking Gaza. I mean, realistically, if you really want to get down to it, we're not real we're we're not real happy about there being a Gaza in the first place because it shouldn't be there. It is that's the God's promised land to his people. But it is, and so you know, we don't I don't think anybody is gonna be pro-genocide, and you're gonna see the church interacting in places like Haiti and Sudan and Ukraine and Israel and basically wherever there's a conflict, you're gonna find Christians coming and bringing aid to people. Um and so I think that's where the problem is, is that we we do realistically as Christians, we do take both sides of this argument. On the other side, they don't. And and there is a there is a decrying of, well, because of the biblical worldview, you have caused this to happen. Right. And it is Christian and Christianity's fault and the Zionists to use their terms' fault that there's this warfare and people are dying.
SPEAKER_00And that's where minds have to catch those arguments, and I think that's an important point because the name-calling of the modern day uh conflict is now Christians are called Zionists, they're called Christian nationalists. There's these terms that are purposefully derogatory, which really all it means is that you are trying to live according to God's word and its precepts. I mean, it's you living under the authority of God's word. Uh, but they use that to villainize it, to make it sound like you are somehow a lesser human, a dangerous person because you actually believe God's word is true and you try to do your best to live according to its statutes. But I think it's important to note that also the people that will say that oftentimes are forgetting that they also are making a moral stance on everything. We all make moral stances. The difference for the Christian is we try, to the best of our knowledge, to make our moral stances in accordance to God's word, because we believe morality is fully established in the in the righteousness of God, that he alone is righteous. So we come from a different position that they will not understand. But I also think it's important for us to catch that, especially when it comes to this conflict, you only hear one side of it. I mean, at the end of the day, people will say, Are you for Israel or for Gaza? I'm for God, and I want his will to be done, which I believe he has plans for Israel. I also believe he cares about every single Gaza. And so don't fall into this whole snare that that you are somehow anti-the 30,000 people that are dying, and that you have no compassion or care for any of those people uh if you're for Israel. That's a lie, that's a misnomer that's out there in culture, that you can care for the Gazan and have compassion while also still standing for Israel's right to sovereignty. And I think that's important to come back to that same point that this war could be over if Hamas would simply put down their arms. It could be over if they would release the hostages, which include Americans, by the way. Uh it could end immediately, but none of those things are happening because sadly, the blood of those Gazans that are dying, the casualties that always come in war, and that's why war is awful, they are falling on the on the uh on the hands of the Hamas leadership at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_02And as proof positive of that, the other day there was a ceasefire, and then almost immediately after the ceasefire took effect, Hamas bombed shot rockets at the Israelis and killed four soldiers. And so it's like, come on, guys, pull it together.
SPEAKER_00And I think we also have to make clear, too, Hamas and their their creed, they don't want Israel to exist. It's not like that they don't like Israel, they want them exterminated. They say so. That's within it. And then also you look to their who they think is the devil. It's us and them, by the way. So they feel the same way about America, and you look at the same partners of Iran and the Iranian proxies. Likewise, the common denominator is they're anti-Israel and they also hate America. So it becomes very confusing when in the United States of America there are Americans that are standing for people that actually hate them, you know, the governments for those causes, uh, and once again go against God's will for the Israeli people. So it's a dangerous place to be. I would just encourage you, don't be swayed so quickly by the crowd.
SPEAKER_02So so having placed, you know, where where we believe biblically the right side of this argument is, and also kind of getting beyond just protest as a means of combating uh combating uh injustice. Then how should we, as people who are citizens of both this world and the next? How should we interact with others who have who are maybe even protesters themselves and and be able to have cogent and compassionate arguments with them?
SPEAKER_00I would say first of all, talk to them if you get the chance. I think it's good for you to have dialogue with people that disagree with you.
SPEAKER_02And not on the internet. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And in fact, we're we're actually called, by the way, to talk with people that disagree with us. That's the whole point of evangelism is you are trying to reach people that are not in the kingdom, that are actually disagree with you. Um so one, I would encourage dialogue, keep it as peaceful as you can. But the second part I would also encourage is don't be bullied. I mean, I think a lot of people are too intimidated to speak with someone that they disagree that they know disagrees with them because they're they're scared and intimidated, um, and in some ways scared to let people know that they actually are Christians and believe the Bible is true. And to me, that's a sad reality that comes out of a conflict like this is I think the church has been bullied and the church has been told that they have to keep it secret, that they love the Lord and his word. So don't be bullied. It's okay to communicate your convictions according to God's word. But then also I would lastly say, come to the understanding that that you might not be able to find mutual ground. That's also a truth. You should seek it and seek peace with all. But there are some that don't want to hear the truth of God's word. Uh Jesus calls it in Mark 4, the hard soil, that the seed just falls off that path and bounces off. And so I think we have to come to that humble realization that the word of the cross is uh folly to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved, it's the power of God. And so we have to understand that that you might not be liked by everybody. That's just the truth.
SPEAKER_02And I would add to that a couple a couple of other things. Um, first, you know, when you get into a conversation with someone coming from this point of view, uh, get to the point where you are hearing what they're saying and and get them to get to the point where they're saying why they're doing it. I think you can't be we can't be satisfied with just taking rhetorical positions. It has to be why do you believe in this? Like what is what is it in your heart and soul that's stirring you to take this position? Um I would also argue that if you find yourself in an echo chamber of people who all believe the exact same thing as you, don't be afraid to be the person who presses on the brakes a little bit and says, okay, let's at least try to think about why these people believe the way they do. Um, you know, I've I've heard some of the nicest Christians say the most awful things when they're around a bunch of people who believe exactly like they do. And so sometimes you, your role as being a peacemaker may be helping other people have compassion for those who have a different who have a different point of view. Um but then lastly, I would encourage you to remember that in history, some of the greatest radicals were the one uh for the wrong side became the greatest heroes for Christianity. I mean, you look at at Paul, he was a rad, he was radically against the Christian faith and was going house to house, throwing them in jail. And then Jesus turned his heart and made and made him the greatest missionary that that's ever been. And my my qu one of the things that I want to challenge you, listener, in is who knows but that one of these protesters that's out there on a campus on Columbia or UT Austin, what if that person could be the next great missionary for Jesus Christ? That if when presented with the saving grace of Jesus, they ch He changes their world in that in the the the devotion that they've placed in such meaning, not meaningless necessarily, but in in rhetoric, gets put into something real. I just I think that that's something we always have to consider that the story is not written for all of these people. Um and we I think we've got to be careful not to throw them out with the political rhetoric. Um and so that's kind of where where what I how I would encourage to interact. Stephen, any any thoughts from you on how to interact with the with those?
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Jonathan, anything else before we close off on the podcast today then?
SPEAKER_00No, I think we're good. Just pray for the conflict. I think that's the big key is to go back to scripture, pray for the peace of Jerusalem, pray for Israel, and pray for the Gazans and those that are suffering, and pray for God's protection and ultimately closure really to this whole conflict.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. All right, friends. Well, that was the first of the preheat series. I hope you're starting to get to a good 250 degrees. Anybody, anybody baking here? Like brownies, cookies, anything like that? No. Okay. Anyway, we're looking forward to talking next time as we continue in these hot topics, but hang in there, stay tuned, and we'll be back on the Citizen ATX podcast.