Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
PreHeat: Climate Change
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For those that grew up in the 2000's, you probably remember movies like "The Day After Tomorrow", which dealt with the idea of climate change. Whether it be in the form of Global Cooling in the 60's or Global Warming in the 2000's, Climate Change has been a hot button issue for quite some time. There is not doubt that this has become a politically charged point of disagreement between many people. Join Matt and Stephen as they discuss how we as Dual Citizens are to respond to this idea of climate change.
Hello and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillum, and with me today in studio is Stephen Vaughn. Hello, Stephen. Hello. And so today we are going to be continuing our preheat series as we're dealing with issues and topics that are hot topics moving into your summer. Our hope is that as we're talking through this series, um, we're helping prepare you for the kind of conversations you're gonna have with coworkers, with friends, with family as you have that time out on the lake this summer or as you're climbing up the side of a mountain or something like that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so with that, today we're gonna be dealing with another particularly um hot topic, I suppose. There's a little bit of irony there. We're gonna be talking about climate change. This is everyone's favorite thing. It used to be called global warming, now it's called climate change. Um, and so kind of start this one, we want to talk about why is this even a thing? Because I mean, o over the centuries, you know, clearly there has been things like climate change, and um, you have things like ice ages and big warmings and things like that. And so what is it, Steven, that um is driving this conversation now? Why why is it that we that something like that seems as mundane as as climate change would be on people's minds so much at this point?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, I think really you can kind of split it into two different categories. I think there's there's one group that is seriously worried about climate change, the warming of the world, the possible end of the world. I mean, people take it all the way to crazy extremes in some ways. Usually it goes there, yeah. Um, and so there's that sense where there's even a fear and an anxiety of if we don't make a change or if we don't do the right things and we're not good stewards of the atmosphere, then it could change make major astronomical changes to the entire climate. The second thing that happens is probably where most people find themselves, which is uh the collection of like trash and recycling and and just doing your basic amount of things to take care of the world in the climate, um, and just trying to be responsible with the way that we have a footprint on the world.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I mean you you make that statement that most people are concerned about protecting the environment and things like that. It is it is an ironic take, too, because the I mean you look at like for instance, when I was in when I was in college, I had an opportunity to go to the Austin City Limits music festival. And I mean you think, okay, here is a bunch of people who care about the environment and stuff like that. Uh, and went to, and this is gonna age me a little bit, I went to the John Mayer show when he was playing, and they were talking about um you know making all these great choices for the world or whatever. Um, and then after the show, they all everybody walked away and there were just beer cans everywhere. And this this this group of people who were supposed to be so caring about the environment were just trashing it. The other side of that is I think generally, a lot of times when you hear these climate change activists, it's very rarely toward I say very rarely, most of the times it's more toward the big corporations, right? It's these, you know, the it is the shadowy conspiracy theory, the oil companies, things like that, that people point at and say, well, they're the ones who are responsible for this, and so they need to they need to fix this. And so really, I mean, when we look at what I what we're what's driving this, you know, it it's become more of a social thing, a more cultural type thing, where it's it's a it's not based in act the actual science of the matter, it's more based on the anxiety of it, right? Um if if you've followed these conversations, the word like the the fact that Greta Thunberg is you know known for anything at this point's kind of bizarre, but that is what it is, is that you have this this little girl crying on the news about how we've ruined her future and stuff like that because of climate change stuff. And so um, all right, so this is where we're at. You have this this major anxiety over climate change. You made that statement, you know, people look at this as the end of the world, this post-apocalyptic kind of thing. Some people, even on the the side of the argument where it's like, well, human culture shouldn't exist at this point. Okay, well, that's kind of a hard, yeah hard thing for a human to to say, but um so I mean are we in a place where ethically Christians have to make a call on whether they believe in climate change or not?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, I I think there's something to that, you know. If anything, I think as a Christian, maybe you could argue that there's a part of Revelation that may involve climate change, like that the end of the world, the way that God comes back, and maybe some of the things he uses involve like it's gonna get hotter, we hear about that. Yeah. There's things like that. So there maybe there's a place there we can go, but um well, I don't know about it.
SPEAKER_01You look at the Revelation account, and um and even when Jesus says the first time got into the world by by a flood and by water, the second time will be by fire. Fire is not the same thing as the the temperature of the earth going up 1.5 Celsius. I mean, that's that's not really that's a much more dramatic change. And I th I I think you use that word dramatic here. I mean, climate change by nature is a slow process. And I mean, I I I will say that it's pretty clear the earth is hotter now than it was 30 years ago overall. Um, but is that is that something that's being driven by the fact that I'm not driving an electric vehicle? And then you also have the side of it where we're Christian, the the the part where Christians live is what is my ethical responsibility here? Like it so say climate change is real, because ultimately climate change is real, as we've we've talked about. I mean, the climate changes over time, um, and greenhouse gases are a thing and and things like that. But what is my moral and ethical imperative as a Christian of what my concern should be for it, and then what should my response be out of that?
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, we see a picture of this in Genesis 1.28. I mean, it says, um, you know, be fruitful, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth with it and subdue it, have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves on the earth. So God is telling us to have dominion over the earth, take care of the earth, take care of what he's created for us. Um, so in that sense, we have an obligation really to take care of the world and to protect it and to not trash it.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. And I think there's clearly that. I mean, you don't we're not called to be wasteful of anything, right? Yeah. Um, but there is there is that side of what it what does it mean for the for mankind to have dominion over the earth ultimately, and how how does that look like like basically conservation of some sort toward toward the environment?
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean making sure that we are working towards um creating things that don't actively destroy the world, right? So we have been given this blessing of creative nature by God. We can we can make crazy big things, we make cars and make all kinds of stuff. Um, how can we make those things in a way that they don't destroy the world? That's humanity. But in terms of a Christian's perspective, um, I don't think that we have to be so worried about it to this extent that we are preaching every Sunday, like you should be recycling every Sunday, like that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I I think, yeah, I mean, we we live so for those of us who are citizens of ATX, so sitting of Austin, Texas, you know, in some ways we're compelled to, right? Like you have to recycle. You know, I mean, if you're a business in the community, you're required to. Now they're they're getting down the road toward comp uh uh enforcing composting as a as a methodology. Um, but there there is it's this weird kind of in-between thing. And you know, when when I look at the the reasoning behind people's anxiety over these things, you know, you're coming at it from this perspective, well, we need to take care of it, which is true. I mean, we need to take care of things, but there's the there's this other feeling of it of what I where I think a lot of the anxiety comes from is this lack of control. That we have this idea, well, I have to have control over everything around me. Um and when people perceive maybe I don't have control over that, then that becomes dangerous, right? I mean, why why do why do we lean so heavily on weather forecasts and you know what why do people freak out like when a river floods, I mean that's kind of what a rib river does. Um but I mean you you there there's a difference between concern and and um responsibility versus panic. And I mean, uh for instance, you know, you talk to most elementary kids at this point, if you're if they're I mean, you talk to them about what were things you're concerned about, so climate change is a big one. Um usually I mean when I've talked to them, that's almost all always the only thing they're worried about for some reason. And it became it's become this kind of big boogeyman that that people like to be able to point to as you should be afraid of this. Um, and so I mean, do is is climate change something we should be afraid of?
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean no. If you believe that God has the power to rule over everything, which he does, um, because he created it all, then no, we really don't have a big fear that we would die because of that sort of thing, right? It would be more of God has a plan for the future, and if the climate change is part of it, then so be it. He has a reason for that. Um, but he does make a the promise to Noah in the end of Genesis chapter eight that um he would not destroy the earth again. So I mean, with the exception of how what Revelation sees, which isn't I mean, you you could argue what whether that's completely destroying the earth or not, or what that looks like for everything, but um in the sense of a great Armageddon of you know that we're gonna have big solar flares or something like that just totally wiping the world out, we really don't have a whole lot, I don't think, to be worried about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and uh you know when when we I think what we have what calls us to do is really question motive people's motivations, right? Yes. Um one of the things that I think is interesting is um from the perspective of those who live in Europe, right? So you have uh Germany, which is which you know has made a big deal about how green energy everything has gotten and all that. Um but when you had the Russia-Ukraine conflict arise, all of a sudden now it gets revealed, hey, where does where does Germany get most of its its power making to be able to create heat in homes? Yeah it's not from electric electricity because I mean that's too I mean that's too expensive. They heat their homes with natural gas, a fossil fuel, which they get from Russia. So when they stop when they can't get it from Russia, now people are freezing in their homes. And I think what has to be called into question here is when when people start griping about things like climate change, my question is what are you willing to give for it? Um because you know, at least in the American culture, you know, we we live in a tremendously high expectation of living, where our standard of living is I should be able to have my own car, I should be able to have air conditioning, I should be able to have a limitless supply of hot water, also water to water my lawn. I mean, when you really start digging down into it, you know, the kind of things that people point to of, well, you know, I want I want the the earth to be sustainable, is like, well, do you really? Or do you or or do you really just not want to be burdened by bad things happening to people? Yeah. Because ultimately, when we really get down to it about what climate change climate change originally, when it when it was all going through all this, was partly of a shortage of fossil fuels. Right. We're gonna run out of oil. Well, unfortunately, now there's more oil that they've discovered than ever exit than they ever knew even existed before. And so that's not gonna happen. Now then it became global warming. Well, in some ways, yeah, of course, in the north it did, and in the south, maybe not so much. That there have been periods where the Antarctic ice has expanded further than it had ever been before. And so it is a very vacillating kind of process. The other side of it is like, well, there are droughts, well, there's also floods, and there's, I mean, you have the this real weird balance of stuff that's happening. On top of that, and this is the part where you know it you get kind of I try to be careful, but I mean, think about Hurricane Katrina. A lot of people will point to, well, you had climate change is responsible for these mega hurricanes. New Orleans was built below sea level. Yes. What is gonna happen anytime there's a major storm that comes through? It's gonna flood. Absolutely. I mean, there they're okay, there can be a there can be an argument made for the intensity of these storms, yeah, but I also remember that in 1901 there was a hurricane that came and blew away Galveston. So I mean it to me, I guess when I look at it, I I I I look at these things from a historical expectation of life, right? Why why should we expect that every year is gonna be a banner year for crops, that we're gonna get enough rain, that we're not gonna get too much rain. I mean, you think about it classically, think about the the Nile. The way that the Egyptian civilization developed in a Nile was by regular floods. They knew it was gonna happen, it would come, it would water everything, and then they would grow out of there. Some years the floods didn't come and it was bad. Sometimes too many floods came and it was bad. But that was that historical expectation that things change. Um, I think what when we when we really get down to the bottom of it, of what people are so afraid of is they're afraid of change. They're afraid that my expectation of the way that I want to lead my life is gonna be altered because of some major change in the environment. Sea level gets higher that my I live in Miami, yeah. That's gonna be a problem that I'm living that close to the ocean. Um, I live in the high plains, tornadoes are worse. That's not great. I mean, but at the same time, we don't necessarily have control over that. I mean, we I mean I don't think we at all have control over it. Um and you look at it from a biblical perspective, where G where um where it says that uh God makes his rain to to fall on both the the good as well as the wicked. Um I just I I I see this in a historic uh in a historical kind of view that if if our goal is to have the climate interact in such a way that it doesn't have nobody ever has a problem, then we're living in a fantasy world. It's never happened that way globally. And um there is a very um, I think a mistaken view of this from people. Um I mean part of the reason why I I think think about it this way is um you know I grew up west of Fort Worth, up in kind of the plains area there, start where West Texas starts becoming the plains. And growing up there was this expectation that every spring there are going to be bad storms. It just happens. You're gonna have heavy wind, heavy rain, hail damage. It's just gonna be there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um we moved into Austin where we're in the hills, and now anytime there's a hail storm, it's like the end of the world. And it's like, guys, this is like every May. I remember I remember distinctly one time when I was a kid, um, there was a hail storm that blew out every window in our house, plus skylights. I mean, uh, I mean, that was before the I guess apparently there was client climate change as a real bad thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It was a pretty bad storm still. I mean, I can remember um there's a town near Austin called Gerald where they had an F5 tornado in the 90s that ripped homes off their foundations. But climate change is not pointed to for that. It's it was a tornado in Texas. It it kind of happens. And it happens. Um so you know, with that, I mean, how do we then so I I think one of the places that Christians find themselves in a bad, in a bad arguing position is when we try to deny climate change. So I mean, what I mean, what do you think about that? I mean, like I mean, what why should we not what what what is the problem of people falling into that category of becoming climate change deniers?
SPEAKER_03Well, uh there could be pretty big uh implications on the future. I mean, it still can't there still could be climate change. It may not be as severe as what a lot of people think it is, but it could make things more miserable for people in the future. It could be just hotter a lot, it could be more famine in the future. I mean, we don't really know what the effects are. Um, likewise, especially when you're just talking about the recycling part of it. I mean, my goodness.
SPEAKER_01That well I'm I'm my my hot take on that is from what I've seen of recycling programs, it's like less than five percent of any material that gets put into the recycling bins that actually gets recycled. Um, I think cardboard is the highest rated one that will get recycled, but like aluminum is like three percent. Yeah, um different kind of metals is is even lower. Uh plastics, forget about it. Like it's gonna wind up in the Pacific Ocean on Trash Island, yeah, which is out there in the middle.
SPEAKER_03Which is the thing that I think would be a better focus of our time, if you ask me. It which nobody really asks me because I'm not a politician or anything. But if you did, uh like picking, you know, trash up out of out of the roads, out of the oceans, like that's a way better use of our time than any of this stuff.
SPEAKER_01But well, but that and that in its nature is being a good citizen, right? Yeah. And I I think that's the other piece of this that that tends to be ignored with most climate change. Because I I I think where this even the existence of these um climate change deniers is that there's a feeling if I don't, if I say that there's such a thing as climate change, then I'm gonna be forced into a political arena I don't want to be in. Exactly. Um I I I think that that is a a false, a false dichotomy there. Um and so I mean you're pointing at something right now. Like what what what do you have on that, man?
SPEAKER_03Well, so the the big thing that I think a lot of people fall on the trap of is the conspiracy theory stuff around it. And so, and this is not even just as a Christian, this is all like there's so many weird interests, there's so many whistleblowers, there's so many full claims that we cannot even we don't even know whether it's truthful or not, um, that it makes it easier for you to doubt certain things. And I think as as a well, I guess as a scientific mind, even you have to be skeptical of the possibility of it being possible like true, like or even there being some way that it could be true.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, there's a difference between being a skeptic and also demanding that people provide data for what their their claims are too. Because I mean ultimately you you look at this and and a lot and what what it happens is people will say climate change is a crisis, therefore you must dot dot dot dot dot. Um I don't think that that necessarily follows because uh you know I I consider it from the from this point of view where uh you had the um that climate change conference there in let's see, where was it last it was it Abu Dhabi this last year? It was it was in one of the middle Middle Eastern capitals. I know before that it was in Sharmil Sheikh but I can't I can't remember where it was this last time. But regardless, wherever COP28 was, um I I I had a I had a uh number there, but it was it was some some amount of billions of dollars it cost them to put on that event. Yep and the amount of of uh private jets that were flown to that event and the amount of carbon dioxide that they put out getting these people there to to hold the whole world in judgment. And I remember what it was. It was like a it would cost you, I think, five million pounds in order to be a primary sponsor at this event and get into the actual quote green zone where where the politicians were and stuff. Yeah. And I mean, you look at all the promises that these people make going in, it's like, okay, if we're being realistic about this, what is it, what changes it actually making when you have countries that are already trying to reduce their carbon footprint saying they're gonna continue to do it, and the people who aren't saying I'm not gonna do anything about it, try just try and stop me. Not to mention the hypocrisy that's there, that a lot of these most of these nations that are claiming, hey, we need to have uh climate change, we need to have green energy, all this kind of stuff, we're the very ones that benefited from the industrial revolution in the first place. Exactly. That there's no infrastructure like we have in the United States and in Britain and in continental Europe without the industrial revolution paving the way for that. Exactly. Literally paving the way. Yep. And so to me, there is a historical arrogance here of look, we benefited mightily from rapid urbanization and industrialization, and now we have a much higher standard of living than your country does, but we're not gonna allow you to catch up because you're not being good for the environment. I I don't that that doesn't follow to me. Like I mean, ultimately people are going to do what they can to create the best lit best standard of life and best expectation of life for their families. And as co as countries, none of these countries are gonna say, I'm gonna put myself, well, none of these wise countries will say I'm gonna put myself in a position where I intentionally weaken myself and might make my people more poor so that people who already have a higher standard of living can enjoy a better standard of living as a result. And I mean and you know, if we're talking about obviously the Christian side of this, you know, I I think there there is a there is a measure of, as you were bringing it earlier, of having personal um uh personal burden to take care of the environment that we're given them. You use that word stewardship. That's what it is. We're we've been given this trust of the world and frankly, things like fresh water sources and things like that that are limited resources. Okay, we can we should take care of these things. But at the same time, scripture doesn't say serve that thing, because ultimately what climate change leads to is that worship of nature. Or really realistically, I would say worship of ourselves, yeah, because of of how much we're able to can control. And so all right, that all being said, and all all that idea of all those angles, and not even really mentioning you made that statement about conspiracy theories. I mean, ultimately things that that aren't even really conspiracy theories. They're really just more money of who owns who owns these green energy interests and um how much how much pollution is being dumped into the environment, making these heavily uh all these heavy metal batteries that will go into these electric cars that then depend on a grid that depends on fossil fuels to power it, um you know, in case there's a freeze or something like that. Um all of that being set aside for Christians, then how do we how how should we approach this? As if we're gonna be a citizen both of our secular world and also our heavenly heavenly world, what is that burden that we should carry and how should we interact with people who for whom climate anxiety is a real thing, that they are really scared about what's happening in the environment and they want to see their world change?
SPEAKER_03Well, respond first with grace and and you know, understanding that they do have an anxiety and a fear of it. Um, you know, try to find ways to help, you know, lead them to the word and lead them to uh words of peace and and things like that, and and just have patience with them. Like the worst thing you could do, I think, is just start telling them they're crazy and wrong and you know, everything that they that they're conspiracy theorists and stuff like that, what whatever side they're on. Um, you know, I think the best thing we could do is come at it with more of a loving heart. Um, and in terms of the country, I mean, this is where it just gets off the rails and the nature of the podcast really is as a Christian, we do all we are also US citizens. Yeah. So we also do have a vote, and we are able to vote for the people that we believe represent our our beliefs. So, you know, we do have an obligation, I believe, um to vote on things that represent our beliefs. We vote for people who represent our beliefs.
SPEAKER_01So and I I think, I mean, to that point, knowing that you're not compelled by a party line to say that say if you if you vote conservative, um, that does not necessarily mean that you're anti-climate change and vice versa. I think we got to be careful about falling into those categories, just like with all these ethical things that we've been talking about, abortion and uh as we will talk about LGBTQ and other things like that. Um, I think you know, we we we need to come out with a level head. And I and I think also something to recognize, especially for those who are uh climate change deniers, a lot of times the the direction people come from on this is not out of um an evil or an angry or a or even a corrupt background. Ultimately, they see these natural disasters that are happening on television and in the news, yes, and they feel pity. And I mean, and for a lot, some of the some people, some of you who are even listening will say, I've been affected by climate change, but I lived through this hurricane, I lived through a tornado, I lived through uh declining crop yields because of of drought. I mean, realistically, as Christians, we've got to be compassionate to people's situations. But and and with that, that's one of the reasons why I personally, even though I would tend to be a skeptic on climate change, honestly, I I I try to take an open mind to it. That yeah, I mean, at human actions have consequences. And from a biblical standpoint, there's the statement that all creation groans waiting for that redemption. Yeah. Because what we with mankind's sin coming into the world, we inflicted death on an earth that was not designed to have it. And so as a result, everything is winding that way. And so I think being able to look at the data to understand and then then also not to be bullied into a point of view.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I mean, I I think that that's kind of the line that we as Christians have to walk is that you know, don't throw out cloud the idea of climate change just because it's being used by somebody for wrong purposes. Observe it from an individual angle. Take take the time to research it for yourself to understand what are the real impacts here, and then vote based on I mean, to your point, vote based on your your ethics, vote based on your conscience. That you know, uh hold holding some because what ultimately will happen a lot of times is people will point to climate change and say, this is gonna force your hand on this issue to vote for this guy because he tend he is uh pro um environmentalism, anti-business. Yeah. Well, why why are those two things those two things don't have to be diametrically opposed to one another?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Ultimately, be thoughtful. Don't don't don't allow yourself to be, you know, shoved into a stream of thought because everybody else tells you so tells you so. Um I think as believers, we're given a heart, we're given a mind to observe nature, how it works, understand it, to have dominion over nature, but to take care of it at the same time. Yeah. So any any other thoughts, John uh Stephen, I was gonna call you John.
SPEAKER_03Um I'm not that smart.
SPEAKER_01Uh so any any last thoughts, Stephen, before we kind of uh come to the to the end of this one.
SPEAKER_03Um no, I mean, uh you know, like we said, be good stewards of the world. Um don't try to have too big a footprint and that sort of thing, and and just uh be mindful of other people and their opinions and and go with a loving heart.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I would encourage you, go get out in nature. It's summertime. You know, I say that. Touch grass. Touch grass and then go back inside and enjoy air conditioning. I mean, it's a you know, God's world is designed to be enjoyed. I mean, I I think that that's the one last thing that I would leave on this is that if you're coming at this idea of climate change and you're carrying guilt about the way that you interact with nature or just or in the way that you're living your life, um, if you're not being wasteful, there's not really I don't see there being a reason why you should feel that that kind of guilt or anxiety over it. I mean, ultimately do the best that you can with what you've got. And you know, if that if that and I will say that if you really do care about nature, get out in it and enjoy it. Um hike the trails, get on the water, I mean, enjoy, enjoy this stuff, you know. Um But I do think uh help I think part of your your journey as a citizen of both of these worlds is to love people, to steward well, and to be able to live in the way that God called you to live. And I hope, friends, that you that as you're listening to this, that that you hear us in that, that this is this is part of your world, that you're a part of it, and participate in it. So, all right, I think that's all we've got for today. Steven, thank you for joining me on this podcast. We we've changed the world, we've dealt with climate change, it's all it's all solved now, right? Yeah, yeah. Sure. But friends, we thank you for joining us for this episode of Citizen ATX. We look forward to seeing you next time and take care and we'll see you soon.