Feedback: Cussin'

"To cuss or not to cuss that is the question"... Well actually it is a little bit more complicated than that. Did Jesus ever cuss/curse? Did Paul? Should curse words be a part of the vocabulary of a dual citizen? Jonathan and Matt cover all of this and more in todays episode. 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillum, and we are glad that you are joining us today on as we continue with our feedback series talking about communication. Today with me in the studio is Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Hello, Matthew. And also Stephen Vaughn, our faithful producer and director of media. We have enjoyed this series talking through these issues in communication between our heavenly world and our secular world. And today we're going to devolve, I guess, is a good word for it, to talk about some of the ways that we communicate we communicate that we really ought not to. So today we're going to talk about cussing. So, Jonathan, when we say the word cussin', what do you think is classically is meant by that? Like what I mean, where where do you think we're coming from on it?

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Oh, when you hear cussing, you know what cussing is. That's my definition. Cussing, I mean, at the end of the day, it's it's coarse joking, it's foul words. Usually they're attacking words, you know, towards someone. Um, but there's also humor that comes in with that too, of course, joking with profane language that uh sometimes is done for a cheap laugh. Sometimes it's done to uh antagonize or attack someone. Um so there's different purposes to it, but it's using words in general that describe very deep, uh, usually mean things towards someone or a certain situation.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

I think it's interesting thinking back on it, like it as a kid, you know, you get you get your mouth washed out with soap, right? Did that ever happen to you, John Linma? Oh man, I'm I never cussed though, man. My dad got that perfect. My dad got that in his mind one time that he was like, you know what? I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna teach you a lesson. I didn't enjoy it. It was gross. But you know, it it's interesting to me that a lot of parents put cussing up on the same level as if someone stole or, you know, in a child context, pushed another kid or something like that. I mean, why why do you think why do you think that is? Why I mean why do you think that we elevate I mean, you we say a lot I especially say a lot of stupid things, but I don't usually connect saying something like something that I say to the extent of a punishment for uh something that I've sinned in. Well, how did cursing and cussing in general come to be that?

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Well, because it's it's profanity, so it's profane, is the is the perception of these words. And especially when you see something pure doing something profane, it always triggers you. Like you use the parenting context, parents, we we kind of flip out usually when our young children will let that word slip because we see our children as good, you know, sweet kids. And when you see a good, sweet kid say something grotesque and profane, it's shocking. Yeah, to your point, you know, would it be worse for the kid to punch a kid in the face? Yeah, but sometimes it doesn't feel like that. If you draw if you hear your kid drop a word you didn't even know they knew, um, in that moment, there's a lot of rage as a parent, too, because you're thinking, what on earth? My sweet little child should not be saying these kind of words. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

So no, I mean that's absolutely true. And you know, for me, since I always like to ask weird questions, like I I I look at the whole thing, you know, and generally when when we're talking about this, you use those terms interchangeably cussing, swearing, cursing. And it it's always struck me as strange when I look at the Bible and I and I look at what what why why those are connected. You know, you um you see all often in scripture, don't swear by anything um on on earth or in heaven. Um and it you even talk about um how uh Jesus says, but let your yes be yes and your no be no. And so you know, there is this value th statement to the things that we stay we say. Uh it reminds me also of when Jesus uh is speaking to Peter and he says, you know, whatever you uh declare as loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven, and whatever you declare as bonded on earth is bound in heaven. I mean, there's real power in the things that we say. And so classically what people would do in order to assert an argument or to say something with power, they would swear by something. Um and so what that would mean is if I'm telling a lie, then may like you know, we you you see you you swear an oath in in court, right? Where you know, God help me, right? It so that if I if I if I'm lying about this, you know, I'm I'm saying God's power is gonna rain down upon me. Um and so one of the reasons why this got to that area of cursing is is primarily because of the curse word damn. Right. Because it this idea of damnation of of taking a being and pronouncing the judgment of God upon them, which let's just be honest, when you say G D right uh about something, I mean you are calling down the very curse of God, the the the worst thing in existence to be cast down into eternal torment and hell upon somebody else. And so, you know, it it is that idea that our words have power and that our words have um uh impact and meaning and that when we lightly use those kinds of powerful words, it it profanes. It takes something that's sacred and makes it not sacred. Right. So, I mean, what what what do you think on that, man? Like, I mean, do you agree, disagree?

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Well, you have uh I agree. I think it's important to bring up that word sacred because we're why would the Bible advise us not to do this in part? It's what you said right there, is that we're all made in God's image. It's that Imago Day that there's there's there's value in every single person on earth. And when you curse against them, uh and you bring condemnation against them, whether it be as you're saying, through, you know, uh damnation to use that word of evoking God's damnation against someone. I mean, you can't get much worse than saying that, but but any other coarse word you would put against them, what you are doing is you are profaning something that has been made of value by God. You're you're profaning his creation, and you don't see the value in that person that God sees himself. And I think that's part of it too, is it's our our anger. I it made me think of Matthew chapter five when Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount talks about anger and he talks about it extensively. And he said in verse 21, you've heard that it was uh said to those of old, you shall not murder, you uh and whoever murders will be liable to judgment, which makes sense. He says, But I say to you that everyone who's angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever insults his brother will be liable to the counsel, and whoever says you fool will be liable to the hella fire, which seems pretty drastic. But but what that word fool, a lot of people will say that's racca is that word, which it really means a brainless idiot. It's just a horrible, it was really viewed as a cuss word back then. And he's saying if you would call somebody just a vile, brainless idiot with no value, yeah, he's saying, You're missing it that ultimately that person's not brainless and without value. Jesus came to the world for that person that you think is a fool. Um, so I think it's just it shows you that Jesus cares so deeply about our words. I forget in which gospel it is, even says there's a verse that says, one day we'll be held accountable to our words at the judgment. We'll have to give an account for all the words we spoke because those words have power to your point.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

And I think the the big thing behind there's a there's a content, there's content behind that where it's less about what the word literal literally means and the intention by which it's said right now. So this will be something where you know the 15-year-olds listening on this podcast will say, ha ha, now I can curse because I'm just using it in context. But the, I mean, it is that question of the intention that generally when somebody is actively cursing or swearing, they're not just saying they're not just sharing information with you about the rear of something or the derriere or whatever of it. They are trying to say something that will have an effect and an impact. They're trying to say something that is emotionally charged to elicit a reaction. Um, and so, you know, with that, that's where cur that's what cur where cursing at least starts. I think it's interesting too, though, you know, you cur I I say that intentionally that cursing starts there, but then you see folks who you who get into this this rhythm where every other word is a curse word. And so then the question would be, well, I mean, if they if they're just talking in normal conversation and it's just coming up, like and I mean, frankly, a lot of a lot of music that people will listen to is f full of it. Right. Um and the the the question then is I mean, if if the intentionality of you know saying things in anger or wrath is taken away from the word, then why is it wrong? Like, why is it wrong to as part of a of a song to drop the F bomb 20 times? I mean, what what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Well, it's because we don't get to define how important words are or they're not. We don't we don't get to establish the morality behind the words. Um ultimately God's word is our authority, but also when you look into language, a lot of it comes into culture and context and what that culture views within these words traditionally throughout history and how others around you see it. So, say you think a word's not offensive to you, great, but how do the other seven billion people think on planet earth? And and so often when we use our words carelessly, we are only thinking about ourselves where we think, well, I don't see it that way. Well, who cares? If if we're called to die to ourselves, first of all, then you have to think about how do my words, how are my words received by the Lord Jesus Christ, but also by others. If that's the greatest commandments to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, that would include your words in there. But then also, if your second commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself, well, that means my words are not for my own well-being. It's for them. And if it bothers them, why would I use it?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Right. And I think also, I mean, you know, curse words start with as a reaction of anger. Where they where they get to is a lack of self-control, of there's nothing that I don't need to think about the things I say. It doesn't matter about the things I say, so I can say whatever I want any time that I want. Um and I think in that, I mean, obviously, one of the last fruit of the spirit listed in Galatians 5 is self-control. Right. But I mean that that's I think for for our normal everyday speech, one of the big reasons why cursing is so damaging is because it encouraged we when we know what we're saying is something that is offensive and we know that it's that it's charged, whether it whether we mean it to be charged or not, what we're doing is we're saying, I don't care enough to control the words that I say. And as as a result, that you have self-control that leads to pride. Right. Um and I mean it's just it's an ugly it's an ugly way to be because at the at the end of it, there's not there's no love in that, in rolling out a string of curse words. It's just i i it's it's the opposite of love because it's it's a lack of self-control.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Well, and I think it'd be impossible for uh say impossible, I hate speaking in absolutes, it'd be improbable that a born-again believer with the Holy Spirit living inside of them would just speak to the way you're speak you're talking about of just rolling off any word they feel like, never actually thinking about it twice, having no reservation of the consequences of those words and the perception of those words by others. We don't live like that. God won't let us live like that because the spirit lives within us. And to your point, the the fruit of the spirit is self-control. And so God restrains those things because he knows they're not going to be profitable for others and they're not gonna be edifying and they're not gonna be glorifying to him. So I think, you know, in that context, you're talking about oftentimes an unbeliever, to which when unbelievers speak a certain way, that whole argument of morality and you know, God's thoughts on it, they've they've removed that from their paradigm because they haven't submitted their lives to the lordship of Christ. But at the same time, I would also argue in a general sense, they still know it's wrong. Because there's that Romans 1 aspect that we suppress the truth, is what we're told that the creation knows what is true because God plainly reveals it, then they suppress that truth because they don't like it. So even somebody that is like, well, I just don't get why people don't like the way I talk. Well, you actually do get it. Yeah, you just don't like it. Like you get it really well.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

And if you if you've noticed it, then you do it.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Let's let's talk about this. Um so what about replacement words? So by the time because I was a weird kid.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Yeah. Well, that that's one. Um like the one where it where the one that I used to do when I was uh I still do sometimes as a weird teenager was dad gummet. That's a that's a really good one. Also, and I'm we're I'm gonna educate you here a little bit. I think you may already know this, but the word crap, people get get kind of twisted up about it. We're having fun. Yeah, the word crap. But hey, you know what? It's actually applicable because do you know who the name of the man who invented the modern toilet was? Thomas Crapper. Look it up all day. So uh so I am just using the right. Yeah, so I just that always cracks me up to the guy's last name was Crapper. But anyway, the uh but but with that, um so I I I something interesting that I they observed once. So I when I was in uh college, I lived in Poland for six months. And in Polish, uh and if we have any Polish listeners, I I'm afraid uh please don't let me offend you with what I say next. But probably the the most common curse word that they would use, and the one that that showed up the most is the word kurva. All right. And I'd a I had tried to figure out, well, what does this mean? What does this curse word mean in Polish? Because obviously to us in this room who don't speak Polish, unless Steven's uh holding out on me, um I mean it's just a it's just a sound. There's not really anything with it. For them, it's not even really a when I would ask people, they they couldn't tell me particularly what it meant. There is some cross between feces and a woman of the night, right? Something like that. But what was interesting is that my Christian friends over there, I I would hear them use replacement words where they would where so the funniest one was this girl, very sweet woman, uh, but she got mad about something and she said uh so she started going and they would roll their arms like kircha. Kercha means chicken. So instead of swearing, they just do the same thing. It's saying chicken. But it's funny, between cultures, we do the same thing where we find we catch ourselves cursing and it winds up becoming a daggum or something like that. So, Jonathan, I mean, speak to that. What where does that come from? What I mean, is it is it right? Is it wrong? Like what where does that fall in the in the chain?

SPEAKER_00 14:19

At the origin, we're trying to follow the rules. That's why we do it. We're trying not to say the naughty word, so we say a nice word instead of the naughty word. I guess my advice would be one be, well, do you still have a naughty spirit about you? Is that why you're saying the word? Because if the spirit behind the word is still there, yeah, then you're still in sin. Like like Jesus talks about it. I pulled up Matthew 15 and verse 10, he said, and he called the people to him and said to him, Hear and understand, it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth that defiles a person. Right. And you skip down to verse 18, and what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart. Right. And this defiles a person. So so much of our words are linked to our hearts biblically. And so if your heart is full of anger and animosity and all kinds of just awful emotions, yeah, it probably wouldn't be good to say that word, that replacement word still, because we got to deal with the heart that's causing it. But at the same time, I would also say this some people sometimes start saying those words because they're trying to make progress in their lives. Like they're trying to stop saying it. And sometimes you've got to have a replacement just to like get you moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

It's the nicotine gum of speech. It kind of is.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

And to that point, I wouldn't condemn a person if, like, because you said it earlier. Sometimes people, if you've spent decades cussing and not thinking about it consequentially, but now the spirit is making you think about it. And so part of that of you trying to become more Christ-like is to let go of those words, but you're having to replace them with other filler words. I don't think God looks at that and just like shakes his fist at somebody and just, you know, yells at them. I think, I think if the heart behind it is you are trying to honor God and you're just trying not to say that word that's almost like a tick to you that you're trying to get rid of. Um, you know, I don't, I don't, I think that that would not necessarily be something that I'd raise an eyebrow about either.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Well, so then let's ask the question because you I think you kind of started into it there where you made that statement about um habit, where some come out of habits of that, and so it's just part of kind of the way they they talk, and so they're trying to get better at it. Why, why do believers still struggle with cursing, though? Like what where does it where does it come from? Because I mean, you and I both know and have been in conversation like when and listener, this is kind of another insight kind of thing. As a pastor, it's hilarious to talk to people just on a normal um thing, especially if they don't know you're a pastor first, because sometimes you'll have these people who will be just cursing a blue streak, and then they're then you find out they find out that you're a pastor and all of a sudden their language magically changes into no cursing, even to the extent where sometimes I'm talking with people and they let a curse word slip and they're clearly embarrassed about it. And I never try to make a deal of deal about it because I mean it doesn't hurt my feelings, but it is interesting, an interesting observation to me that that people will it's it's almost like an automatic kind of thing when they find out you're a pastor, they just they they don't want to curse around you. So what is it that that causes believers, even though we're we may we may be trying to be and speak more like Christ, why why is there still a struggle with cursing?

SPEAKER_00 17:12

I would argue the number one reason is because we want to look cool and look like the world. Um I think that's for a lot of people. Like I think there's a lot of Christians, and there's always been a big movement of cussing Christians that you know will claim freedom in Christ and that it's not a big deal. And a lot of that though is because they're trying to relate to people in the world, so they start looking like the world to try to have a conversation with them. So I think some of it actually comes under the guise of mission. You know, somehow I'm on mission, so I'm going to uh just curse with another guy and act like one of the boys. Well, you're not one of the boys, you're God's son. So quit acting like it. And I think I think that happens sometimes is because we just want to be relatable. Yeah. And so we we look that way. I think another reason is just we're we're emotionally immature, like we don't know how to express ourselves. Uh, because cuss words are the easy words, you know. It's hard to actually talk about our feelings and our heart and what we're really upset about. It's much easier just to go postal and say a bunch of four-letter words against somebody and storm off.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Um, so some of it also is just an immaturity issue that we've got to become better communicators with our words.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah. I'll and I'll I'll I'll take another step too, I think, because there there is the the laziness factor, there's the wanting the peer pressure factor. I also we we have to admit that the kind of media that we intake, uh, you know, it's what Jesus said, uh, you know, it's not what goes into a man, but what comes out of him because uh the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. A lot of times the overflow of our hearts is the kind of stuff that we're watching. Like if we if we are um delighting in things that we know are obscene or profane, um, one of the things that I I you know, because we this this conversation could cross over into coarse joking the same way about why why do we not talk about these things? Because again, it's profanity, it's yeah, it's it's using unclean uh talking about unclean things. Um but a lot of times that that kind of um kind of language uh generates from my from a heart that's delving into pornography and into things that they know are profane and unsacred. And so as a result, that's living in their heart, living in their mind, and it at some point it's gonna try to get out. And I I think that that's one of the things that we have to recognize is that you know, if I'm having a struggle with cursing, and I'm not saying like every once in a while a stumble or something or uh step on a Lego or whatever, because I mean stepping on a Lego is like second to childbirth. But um the women the women of the podcast just turned it off. Um but the but when when whenever you find yourself getting into a place where you get angry and your first thought is to swear or to curse about it, it you gotta step back and s and say, what am I taking into my life that makes that the thing that I want to do? Like Yeah, I mean it it it's a there it is kind of a a condemning thing to consider that the things that come out of our mouth are the overflow of our hearts.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

I think it's a fair point. I remember uh there was uh a video I watched one time of a pastor, he was preaching a message, and honestly it made me laugh. It was kind of a funny video, but but it but it was a good illustration of this. It was funny and sad. But the guy had a sermon and he was just preaching, saying whatever he was saying, and he accidentally slipped an F-bomb from the pulpit. Like it just came out like at a word, like he messed up his word and he kind of said it without even noticing. He said it, and they just kept moving and it came out of there. And everybody, you know, is chasing you know, put this video putting it all around the internet because they're laughing at a pastor that said the F-bomb. But in the back of my mind, I was thinking the same thing of like the dude didn't even notice, like it was there, which what does that say right now about his heart and what the words that are coming out? Yeah, because to your point, words are a reflection of your heart, and the things that go in form the things that are gonna come out. Um, but it comes back to the spiritual formation aspect. If you aren't on guard daily and you're not spending time with the Lord in prayer and meditation of his word, reading the scripture, letting God transform you, then you will be conformed to the patterns of this world and it's gonna come into you because you're gonna intake all the other stuff. The question is, are you intaking the good stuff? Because the good stuff combats the bad stuff. Yeah. And if you don't have that, then you really are making yourself uh vulnerable to the enemy's attack.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah, and I think I think an important point to this, because we we're talking about you know the wrong things about it, but what what are the good things? We if you know and you feel tempted to curse, um, you know, one of the things that you can do is start thinking about what kind of constructive or positive things can I and or encouraging things can I say to others in lieu of that. Like and even even if it is an expression of anger, how can I express that anger in a healthy and reasonable way of expressing to somebody I am really angry about the way you treated me? And uh makes it makes me want to say some things, but I'm not I don't want to. And so help me work through this.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Well, and it's a testimony of God's grace that you can even do it that way because you are going to get angry. Paul says, when you get angry, do not sin. So you're going to be angry. It's what do you do? And Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 1:7 that the Spirit of God, God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and self-control. So the spirit can give us the ability to love somebody who is not loving us. And the spirit can give us the ability to exercise self-control. And so I think that's the key at the end of the day is the spirit's work in your life to keep you from falling into that whole game. Really, it's a miracle, I guess is the point. Without God, you can't do it. You have to have God.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Yeah. And so, you know, the question that we always got to ask, right, is, you know, when we when we're talking about this conversation between our heavenly and our secular city, do do we ever have any record of Jesus or Paul cursing uh in the in the Bible, or really anybody in the Bible cursing?

SPEAKER_00 22:58

I would argue no for Jesus and Paul. I mean, Jesus, Jesus obviously is without sin, so he did not sin. I mean, he cursed a fig tree. I mean, you could talk about that. Yeah. But as far as like an interpersonal, you know, blank you kind of conversation, no, no, he did not. That is not in the Bible. Um, so I would I would chalk that up as a no for Jesus. He did have strong words and direct words, like words that probably hurt when they heard it. So I'm not saying he wasn't a direct man, but it but as far as a an uh insult in that sense, like we're talking about of cursing no Paul. Um, no, we we talked about this a little bit earlier. I mean, there might be debate because he famously in Philippians three talks about his his righteous resume, and then he calls it all rubbish, which if you study the Greek, it's not rubbish that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Um, and so that is a strong word, but once again, it wasn't thrown at anybody. He actually threw that at himself and he threw it at his own righteous resume, so he didn't cuss at somebody.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah, and the the other famous example is there in Galatians 1, where um Paul says that if anyone brings you a gospel other than what uh what we brought to you originally, even if it's myself or an angel, uh that person is to be what we we have in English is accursed. Yeah, but it is damn that person. Like that person will be damned.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

And that's and that's just a that's a fact. Yeah, exactly. It's a statement of fact. It's not a uh it's not some kind of a uh insult. It's just yeah, if you preach a gospel other than the gospel, you are damned by definition. You've rejected salvation through Christ and you've and you've chased another rabbit trail.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Yeah. Well, so before we close here today, and before you know we go off and start cursing about whatever happened on the podcast, what any any other closing thoughts, Jonathan, about uh about this topic?

SPEAKER_00 24:42

I think just to to take care of your heart, like going back to that that full circle, our words will take care of themselves if we just take care of our hearts. And and words are transformed over time. I will also say this our words are not perfect, pastors included. We slip on these things. Everybody slips on this stuff. It's it's not like one day you're gonna wake up and every word you're ever gonna say, the rest of your life's gonna be pure. It's never gonna be like that. But sanctification is a process and you do make progress. That's that's the encouraging part. Like even I can tell you, I believe this was fact. My language today is much better than it was five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. And and so God continues to grow us. And and so if you're in a place where you say, My language is a mess, well, just start today. Yeah, start with the Lord and go to Him humbly and let Him start working on your heart, and it's gonna be a process and it's gonna last for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

And honestly, one of the one of the things that I've I've thought about recently is that idea that uh purity is what happens next, right? We we focus so much on purity reflecting back what happened before. The reality is you can't control the decisions that happened in your past, but what you can do is to control whatever decision comes next. And with your with your speech and the way that you speak, um start considering what am I gonna say next? How am I going to start practicing actual encouragement to people? How I mean because again, uh while while you're right that your words will take care of themselves, the best that it will ever get to by itself is gonna be neutral without intentionality. True. Um and so as as easy as it is to curse somebody else, it's hard to bless somebody else. And I think that we we can't miss this on that the idea of our communication, that we need to question sometimes in our lives, who am I actively blessing? Who who am I identifying that I want, because I feel led to by the Lord, I want to say a word of blessing to this person, something that I know to be true, something that because I when I was a youth minister, one of the things that we would always do with our our seniors uh would be to have the parents do a public blessing over their kid. And that can be kind of an intimidating thing of well, what does that even mean? What we would always boil it down to was say one thing, one admirable trait that you see in your child, and then what is something that you're going to be praying over them? If you if you identify those two things, you will be speaking a blessing over that person. And so that would be my encouragement to you on this podcast that you know, if if cursing is an issue for you, or even if it's not, consider uh consider how in the even in this holiday season, who am I going to say a blessing to? Who am I going to intentionally speak truth and life into? Um, because just like your words have power with their cursing, they can they have more power as a blessing. Um, and so hey, thank you for joining us today. I'm glad that we made it through this conversation without uh doing a joke that was inappropriate or something like that. I know my dry humor tends to do that, but we're glad that you joined us, and we look forward to seeing you next time on the Citizen ATX podcast. And as always, if you have questions, thoughts, topics that you would hope that we would cover, feel free to send us a direct message on our Instagram account at AustinBaptistchurch.com. We would be glad to uh to talk about those things, to look into them, and as we continue to navigate this journey between our secular world and our heavenly world. Take care, and we'll see you soon on the Sizin ATX.