Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Revelation_Directors Cut: The Throne Room
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Ever find yourself thinking about what Heaven will be like? Many people like to talk about what Heaven will look like, or who will be there...will my dog be there?...etc. While we don't get a ton of insight into all of these questions, one thing that is made clear is that we will all be fully captivated in the awe and wonder of God. Join Matt, Jonathan, and Stephen as they unpack this glimpse of the Throne Room of God, and discuss the importance of worship as shown in chapters 4&5 of Revelation.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillum, and today with me in the studio is our pastor Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan.
SPEAKER_05Hello, Matthew.
SPEAKER_03And then also our director of media, Stephen Vaughn. Hello. We are glad that you are joining us today as we are continuing our series called Revelation Director's Cut. In this series, we are providing a companion podcast to go with our sermon series as we walk chapter by chapter through the book of Revelation in our sermon series. Last week we hit chapters set two and three. And so if you have not yet listened to that, hope you'll be able to go back and check it out as we talked about the seven churches in Revelation. And this week on episode three, we are going to hit chapters four and five, where we really start to get into the scene of what's going on in heaven. And so I'm excited about this. Jonathan, you excited about this? Always excited to talk about heaven. Oh man, this is gonna be great. And so let's start off then. One of the questions that first springs to mind for me is as we're watching all of these things happen, one of the questions that that always hits me is when is this happening? Um, you know, uh we we generally look at Revelation as a futuristic book of things that are to come. But in the uh in this chapter, you kind of have uh what seems to be something happening presently, but also in the future. So when we're talking about the relation of time to what is happening in heaven, I mean, does heaven still operate on the same timeline like we do now here? Or are they outside of time in this kind of eternal present?
SPEAKER_05Well, first in regards to just kind of the storyline, if you will, of Revelation as you're tracking it, I I think Revelation 2 and 3, it's it's looking to the past, two churches like we talked about last week. Those were real local churches that had real problems in Asia Minor. And then you get to chapter six through 22, it's all looking to the future, I believe, is the proper interpretation of those chapters, the things that are to come. And then you look right there in the middle. There's these transitional two chapters, Revelation 4 and 5. And I believe, in large part, it's giving us a present picture of the things that are happening right now in heaven. Uh, there's even a verse there in that uh fourth chapter in verse eight when it talks about the four creatures that I know we'll talk about later. Uh, it says they were full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. So there's this idea that worship is happening eternally, because it never ceases. And there is a God who's on his throne eternally, uh, and there is this picture of worship that's happening. And so I do believe that it's a picture of the present, of what is happening in a throne room today. Uh, but at the same time, there is also this moment it's transitioning to that we'll talk about next week in the sixth chapter, where a lamb begins to open up a scroll that is found right there in the throne room. And that's going to transition to things that are to come when those seals start opening. But I think there is a picture of present worship that does happen in the throne room all the time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I always struggle with trying to understand how this, how the the uh sequencing of all this happens. Because I mean, you when you're looking at this, you have um various, I mean, for instance, all three members of the Godhead here in this scene in heaven. So that means that the sun is already there as well. So there there might as far as physical presence, it it just it's becomes something that kind of becomes kind of confusing. Yeah. And so for for people who are reading this, you know, what how does this time then relate to um how it should impact us knowing, like for instance, I made a um uh one of the questions that I had in this one particularly is that uh John says he looked up and even behold it, beheld an actual door standing open in heaven. So what is the significance of that? And then what does that speak to us as far as you know how we should feel about these events happening right now?
SPEAKER_05Well, there's symbolism into everything, and we have to remember that one, one of the seven I am statements, Jesus says he is the door. So he is the door to salvation, and it's no mistake in this picture that Jesus is the one opening the door and inviting John into heaven because ultimately that's how we all ultimately find our way to heaven, is through the door that Jesus Christ has opened for us through his life, death, burial, and resurrection. And so you see in that picture, he opens this door and invites John in. And now here on earth, how's that apply to us now? We've been invited into the kingdom today, spiritually. We experience his presence, we worship him, we commune with him here on this earth, but we also will be invited one day into heaven to be with him uh spiritually and eternally. So there's kind of that both and that the door's been opened, but I would also argue the door will be opened when we pass and we go and spend uh eternity with him.
SPEAKER_03And so there again you have both present and future almost coinciding there in this heavenly scene. And I I honestly think that is the way that it's how it can work. I mean, we talked about in a previous episode about the timelessness of what's happening in the spiritual world, that how can both uh present, past, and future all be united like this? Um and it just I think the answer is it just is. And I mean it it it a major point that we have to be able to embrace when we're reading the book of Revelation or really any part of the Bible is that there are going to be things that because we are not God, we're not gonna be able to expand our mind to completely understand. Because none of us have ever been in a timeless situation. We are our creature, we're physical creatures of this world, and the only timeless part of us is our our souls. And um, a lot of times we're not in great touch with our souls. Sometimes our souls cry out for things and we're not even l our physical selves aren't listening. Yeah. And so uh with that, I think we're looking at these timelines of uh and I probably more uh helpful will be less of when it's happening versus what is happening in what order. Yeah. Um almost the more of the cause and effect piece of this, rather of well, when you know on the on our calendar these things happening. It would also reflect you know uh Jesus' statement earlier in the book of Acts that it's not for you to know the epic the epics or the times by which these things will happen, but you're to be my witnesses, and so uh the the progression of history along toward this is gonna continue, even though we may not know the times that by which they're gonna happen.
SPEAKER_05Right. And and I think it's also worth reiterating in these chapters, it's really not focused on time, it's focused on what's happening because the focus is on the throne and the one who's on it. And and as I said in the sermon on Sunday, I do believe God purposefully put that there as the bridge point that takes that gap from where what John is receiving right there in the present, those letters to revelation, to what he's gonna receive, which is really the revelation of things to come, the future, that he gets SmackDab a revelation of what's happening presently. And you see God on his throne to give the assurance uh before he gets the message of really a lot of troubling things that we're gonna get into in the in the following weeks.
SPEAKER_03But isn't that kind of a when we when we're talking about human nature, isn't that kind of um an interesting thing that so often we're in we're placed in a moment where we can enjoy something or we can experience something, but we fail to do so because we're already trying to think of what's happening next. I'm thinking about Sunday night football because I I love watching Sunday night football, but dad gummit, when it hits 10 30, I'm like, man, I gotta be up at like 5 30 tomorrow morning, and all of a sudden, instead of enjoying a football game, which if you're watching the Cowboys, you're probably not enjoying it anyway. Too soon.
SPEAKER_04Ouch.
SPEAKER_03Ooh, stings. Um, but you you are your mind goes somewhere else. And I think that this this eternal present that we're seeing here of this of the the scene in heaven is a challenge to us already of how are we actually in the moments of our lives. Um you know, Jesus says elsewhere in the gospel, um let tomorrow worry about itself because each day has enough worry of its own. And then before that, though, he says, but seek first the kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given unto you. So for this, I think that's why it's important for us to de-emphasize the time aspect and to re-emphasize the actions and the activity of what's happening, because we're we're given a view into something absolutely glory, uh glorious and beautiful.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03And so uh one thing that I want to pause at here as we're moving through this, we're about to jump into the the spot where I say jump in, it's already been happening, but usually the biggest part of conversation that happens around Revelation is what does that number mean? Right? So even in this passage, you see particularly seven spirits of God, and you see one sea of glass, you see four creatures, you see three holies. I mean, it it's these numbers are all over the place. Right. And and classically and contemporarily, people will look at these things and say, well, this so the the four angels, so like just let's say the four angels around the throne are creatures, actually, it doesn't even call them angels. Um but people will say, Well, those are the four gospels, and you'll see in art pretty classically um that uh Matthew is assigned the lion, uh, Mark is assigned the ox, uh, Luke is assigned the man, and John is ascribed the eagle. But not really based off of any biblical context other than this, that there are four gospels and there's four creatures. So how should Jonathan, how should we approach numbers when it comes to the book of Revelation? Should we be looking for numerology behind every number that we see in Revelation? Or is it designed for us to uh does it have a different design in being mentioned and projected to us?
SPEAKER_05I think there's a balance somewhere in the middle. Um, I would argue some people underthink these things. You know, some people don't even consider or evaluate the numbers and the meaning. They just, you know, drive right past it and act like there is no purpose. But if all scripture is God breathed, it's intentional, it's there, there's purpose. So I think you can't underthink it and just look past all these numbers because there are a lot of numbers in Revelation, as you talked about, a lot, a lot more to come, a lot more controversial numbers. But also would say you have to be careful not to overthink. It's probably a balance there in the middle because what's happened uh all throughout church history is people always, and this and I this will sound maybe a little bit mean and jaded, but there are people out there that always want to have the upper hand theologically. They always want to sound like they're the smartest. They found the new cutting edge, they cracked the code, they now have figured out something new that no one else has ever considered before, and they sell books off of it and get blog posts and all these things because for the hearer, it is something new. And the reason why it's new is because that person probably brought it out of left field, like you said, on some of these other things. And so there's a balance there of discernment of one, within your study, looking at those numbers and look for, I would encourage people, look for continuity all throughout the scriptures because there are some numbers that absolutely there are some biblical significance to it that has to be accounted for, but make sure it's based on God's word and sound hermeneutics through trusted academic people that have gone through this for years, and there's tradition behind the heritage of that interpretation versus some blogger who found a number and thought he had a cute interpretation suddenly.
SPEAKER_03Right. And I think as honestly, as a baseline on this, uh it kind of goes back to our view of what history is, right? And you and I have talked about this before about kind of a snowball view of history, that things seem to come back up again and again, even though history is still progressing. One of the things that I believe about the numbers that we see in scripture is that they're there because it's it they are things that God wants you to pay attention to. They they want to that generally the thing if something comes up that looks similar to something that happened in the past, a lot of times they share a lot of the same characteristics or the same essence or spirit. I I would say that's often when you see the number 12 from the twelve tribes of Israel, twelve apostles. Right. Uh set number seven comes up a lot. And you know, as a baseline of it, I think that the one of the safest places to be in your interpretation is I need to pay attention to what that thing is. Um because it just uh I mean, there are a lot of things that we'll never really be able to know the exact dead cold lock uh interpretation of why that number for that thing. Um later we're gonna talk about 666. I mean, there are a bajillion theories about that, but um ultimately I think we have to s this is a place to start that it where that where you see numbers. Number one, I think it's important for us to understand that John is not necessarily creating a code to be unlocked. He is saying, This is what I saw. And you uh, you know, shock and surprise, it looks an awful lot like it does elsewhere.
SPEAKER_05Well, and I think sometimes we we don't give enough credit to God's infinite wisdom in these numbers. And sometimes we look for one right answer on these numbers where perhaps there are multiple dimensions to that truth. Like, for instance, even using the 24 elders, that was a big number yet uh on Sunday in the sermon. The 24, some people are dead set that it represents, as you said earlier, you know, the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles, because once again, 12 and 12, that equals 24. That is true. That is a true fact. Is heaven filled with the saints from both testaments? Yes, there's one heaven, one God, uh, one faith that is credited to us as righteousness. So could that interpretation be true? Sure. But others have also pointed out that there were 24 divisions of priests. I talked about that on stage. And so perhaps does that number correlate to the priests and ultimately is a picture of the priesthood of believers and the complete picture of the saints there, the redeemed. Yeah. And could both of those things even both be true at the same time? Perhaps. Maybe like that's that's what I'm saying. Like there's some of these things that we're just like, well, no, that's the only thing this number could mean. That's where revelation just gets intriguing. Yeah, because there can be varying interpretations on some of these things, and they're not necessarily heretical. Like you can have differing opinions, and perhaps uh they all could be right in their own way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I will say that if you're trying to define what heresy is in particular, it's when you start to take a belief that is directly contradictory to what the Bible says, and then when confronted with it, and this is important because sometimes people are just that they will um be misinformed or uh or make a mistake on something that they've tried to interpret. The big difference between being misinformed and heretical is when confronted by either you're reading in scripture or by others, other faithful witnesses in the church and saying, I don't care what you say, I bel this is what it is, even when you know that it's not. So that's why, particularly in church history, when the people are heretics, it's never they don't no one accidentally falls into heresy. Heresy particularly is holding is holding to a wrong belief on purpose because you're not willing to hear wisdom and will willing to hear truth.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so I think that that's where the the you know, we talk about how big is the tent. That's where the wall of the tent is, is that if you find yourself in a place where you're holding to something that you have interpreted about the Bible, but it's clearly in contradiction to other things that are there and also to the wisdom and guidance and counsel of other solid Bible-believing believers, then at that point you might need to be you might need to can reconsider and stand up.
SPEAKER_05Because I think that also is where it gets dangerous in the modern day. Because people, there are false teachers out there. I think that's also worth saying. And there are people that want to sell books, they want to get clicks online, and sometimes people will have these off-based interpretations on things because they're salacious and they connect to current affairs and somehow they've cracked some new code. And the saints that are misinformed on scripture, they they take the bait. It happens all the time. And so uh it goes back to the authority of God's word. I agree that you have to fall into alignment of what does God's word say, and how has that been faithfully interpreted now for 2,000 years? And and that that's a key thing to ask.
SPEAKER_03And so one thing that came to mind when, especially in that conversation about the elders, particularly, and this is in verse, let's see, uh I know verse 10 and it's there, but it's also there before that, I think. Um, but anyway, they they talk about these four 24 elders that are there. Uh since they're not ascribed names or really any other identifying factor other than the fact that they're elders, does it matter who they are ultimately? Because I mean you you made that statement. Well, they the these twenty there are you know, in the in the classic temple there were twenty-four serving priests. Okay. I mean, in this this passage, that's what they're doing. Right. I mean, they're serving God, they're they're reigning alongside him. They're and as an elder, they're providing the example for all those who would be below them. They're I mean, that's the nature of what an elder is, is an authority over the ones who are not elders. And so, I mean, ostensibly to me, I I the thing that pops into my mind is what would it look like if or what would peep the British people feel like if Queen Elizabeth II got down on her hands and knees before somebody else. Yeah. That has an impact on me. Whether I whether I, you know, personally know Queen Elizabeth II or not, I see in that person this is a person of authority, this is a person who is royalty. And if she is willing to bow, why would I not be willing to bow? And so I think when we look at this, I we can spend a lot of time, you know, looking at the identities of these elders, but more so I think John's just trying to say, look at what they're doing. Exactly right. I mean, it that that is for Locke dead certain. They are they they are absolutely not drawing attention to themselves and are in fact doing the opposite as they cast their crowns before the throne, the determining, like kind of one of the determining pictures of who they are. And that and then that's all we're ever given. I agree.
SPEAKER_05They're they're nameless for a reason, and it's because in heaven, really, only one name matters. And and that's that's I think what really we have to get through our heads is sometimes we always want to be VIPs on this earth, you know. So who's the VIP in the throne room and who are those guys? The whole point of the picture is those guys said we're nobody before him. They took off their crown and they knelt, like you said. And I think that's the big takeaway from it. Shouldn't be the whole, oh my gosh, who's the power player that got in the throne room? It's it's more so look what the power player did. Yeah, he said, I'm nothing. And when they sang songs, the angels they didn't say holy, holy, holy are the elders almighty. Right. They said holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty who was and is and is to come. And those elders, they just fall in place. They say, Yep, we we're not the one who was and is and is to come.
SPEAKER_03And we can't, we we shouldn't forget that this is the same John whose mom went to Jesus and said, Hey, who's gonna sit next to you in the kingdom? And so clearly this is the the the I mean, at least in his family, that was on their minds. But then ultimately you see John not even being willing to name himself in the gospel or in his letters because he himself does not feel that his identity needs to be out in front of everything. Everything in his uh in in what John writes is designed to say God is love, this is who God is, and I want you to know I want you to know him. And so I think that's a that's a good thing for us to consider as we're moving through the book of Revelation. You know, sometimes we'll stress out over the details, but when we at the same time fail to s to look at what the details are doing and uh and kind of their direction. Now, uh one thing that I mentioned earlier is that these scenes seem to reflect what happens in the Old Testament, right? So which shouldn't be a shock. If heaven is eternal and and those things are always going on, then why would Ezekiel and and Isaiah and Daniel see anything different than than what um what John is seeing? But I do think it's interesting, particularly, and we were talking about this before the podcast, the nature of worship that's happening in heaven. So what drew my attention on this is that in uh Isaiah chapter six, you have creatures that are similar to these creatures that are here, uh, and that they're circling around the throne and they're saying the throne room of God, and they're saying the same thing. This holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. What's interesting, it's not directly mentioned here in Revelation chapter four, but it is in Isaiah chapter six that at that time the angels are not singing to God. They're singing, it says that particularly they said to each other, they were constantly saying to each other. And even when we read this in verse eight, uh, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come, is not directed directly to God, but rather to any who would hear. Then on the flip side, the next thing they do is say, Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive honor and glory and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created. And there you see that direct individual worship of God where it is directed directly to him. The reason why that catches my eye is because I think it's a beautiful picture that worship includes both individual and corporate aspects, that there is this eternal worship in heaven that includes everybody who's there, and it's and it's and it's being spoken truths to one another of encouragement to one another, to and honestly to encourage each other about who God is, is identity. Uh, when we see that in worship now, when we sing songs that say things about God, right? Um, but I think sometimes we I would say this is probably more in the more modern environment of worship. We tend to get locked in the individual worship phase, where uh I remember as a teenager that was the statement of, well, there's a pretend there's a circle right around you, and it's only you and God in this room of 300 people, and you gotta worship in that tube. Uh and everything about the worship environment was designed to uh amplify that, which is not wrong, but what it but then you have the collateral of that if you don't also include corporate worship of speaking the truths of God to one another and engaging people who are different than you. I mean, every one of these creatures that appears in Revelation chapter four are very, very different creatures. I mean, these these elders, even though it says they're elders, there's 24 of them, so there are 24 different persons there, not to mention the three persons of the Godhead. So, I mean, there is a lot of persons happening here. And so as a result, I I think it's important for us to be encouraged in the way that we worship. Are we, number one, s uh attributing and giving worth and worship to God Himself directly? Putting on laying down our casting in our crowns, bowing before him, but are we also speaking truths about God to one another? Yeah. In the corporate body of the local church.
SPEAKER_05And I'll add to that, I kind of harped on uh uh church, and I'm talking about the the church, not just our church in the sermon about sometimes churches have lack of a lack of singing where we're not singing to each other, to your point. Like these things aren't pre-proclaimed publicly. We watch it as a performance in worship where it's been reduced even a step more shallow than what you said, because you said it's worship one-on-one. What's happened for a lot of people's worship is one-on-one. You know, they're they're not they're not worshiping God at all, they're just watching the show of worship and enjoying it like a concert. And the point is, is worship is participatory. That's what you see, that you're worshiping God, but our worship to God encourages one another. So uh I agree with you 100% that when we fail to sing out loud at church, when we fail to give testimony to the good that God's done in our lives, when to say, praise God for that promotion, praise God for that uh child, praise God for healing, praise God for filling the blank of whatever's good in our lives. When we fail to give God the glory publicly, we're robbing him and others of that opportunity to uh relish that and to have their faith strengthened and bolstered up simply through us giving glory to God, which is what we were created to do.
SPEAKER_03And I know in in my life, I mean, even as a kid or a teenager going into worship, it made a difference hearing these older saints singing. I remember my dad singing. I mean, he's not really a he doesn't really sing that much, but I mean he was faithful in that. And as a result, it's like, well, I guess I should be too. I mean, if if it's worthy of my dad doing it, why would it why would it not be worthy of me doing it? And then even further, you know, there are these old businessmen in the community people who are impactors, who are, you know, these big, strong, sometimes kind of scary people. And yet they are are are participating in that same thing of singing truths about what they believe about God. And the one of the most um demotivating things that can happen as a pastor is looking out on the congregation and seeing just the most sour looking face, right? And I don't know that I've ever been in a church service where that didn't happen, that there's at least somebody with arms crossed and frown face or whatever. And a lot of times you're like, I'm not I didn't have a problem, I just didn't want to sing. And it's like, well, by n by not participating in this to some level, you're kind of saying the opposite of I don't believe these things, and I don't believe these things so hard that I'm not going that I'm going to stand purposely push myself out from the group.
SPEAKER_05And I would take it a step further that it's it's in many ways a step of disobedience to the Lord because we're told scripturally, let everything that has breath praise the Lord. And so we're called to sing a song, to sing a new song to the Lord. Uh and and when we fail to do so, I would agree that that it's just a lose-lose-lose situation across the board. We're failing to do the things we were called and created to do, and then others around us are missing the opportunity that uh we could provide for them by encouraging them through our words.
SPEAKER_03That's part of the reason why I love kids' choir, because what they lack in tuning, they make up for in volume. Yeah, but I know and they just get they get they go for it. And it's like, you know, faith like a child. Why does our worship not look like that?
SPEAKER_05Isn't that interesting to show how growing up sometimes we don't grow up? We actually become more immature on things. And and uh and that's just the truth that pride comes into our lives, and usually pride is ultimately, if we're being candid, that's usually the blockade to keeping us from singing to the Lord. It's because, well, my voice isn't good, or somebody's gonna think I'm a sissy if I sing out loud, which that's another cultural issue. That's crazy, yeah. And that's a crazy cultural issue that we live in. If if we lived in a different time in another geography, yeah, uh, you would actually have the opposite where men would sing and it was something that was big and it was triumphant. Yes, exactly. It was a warrior thing, but it became sissified for whatever reason uh in American culture and context over the years.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I have I have my theories on that, but that'll be a good thing. I know. We won't talk about it. I do too.
SPEAKER_05I don't like it, but yeah, yeah, we won't hijack this episode.
SPEAKER_00I would also add that it's kind of this is one of the things that falls into a responsibility of worship leader as well, is thinking, is the congregation worshiping together? And are do they understand even what worship is? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well that and that's what we're I mean, worship leaders are designed, and even in this passage, you see worship leaders, the angels are the worship leaders. They're the ones that are like, all right, yeah, all right, guys, here comes verse one. And hey, sing after me, right? I mean, it but that's what it is. Is I mean, we I think we sometimes lose the forest for the trees in this where worship leaders feel this pressure of everything has to be lockstep. I I have to have my entire script labeled out. When sometimes your people just need you to set, need you to say and encourage them, hey, I know that you may not know all the words of this song, but here's here are some of them so that you can feel like you're a part of it.
SPEAKER_05And the other thing I'll add to that too, I think that you see in the throne room is you see authentic worship is contagious. I didn't get to talk about that from the stage, but you see how others start to jump in. Like you said, the worship leaders in that context, uh those angelic creatures, they start singing, but suddenly more sing as well. They continue to. And you add in there the elders and you add in there the angels, then the creation starts to sing in the fifth chapter. And I think that authentic worship is just an application today when people are really worshiping the Lord with all that they have, it becomes contagious to those that are around them.
SPEAKER_03Well, so speaking of chapter five, we probably ought to keep moving on this because we start to get into some things that are not really um what I would say contemporary in in use vocabulary-wise. Like for instance, uh the one much like numbers that appear in Revelation, you often see this idea of the right hand uh appear. So is there any significance to that? Like, why why should it be as always as right? Does God hate left-handed people? Hey, but by the way, fun fact, in Latin, the word for left is sinistra. So they that's where our word sinister comes from. So sorry, lefties. Uh you got the deck stacked against you.
SPEAKER_05Well, the right the right hand was the hand of authority, which you're right. Sorry, sorry, lefties out there. But symbolically, that that was that was known as the hand of authority. Jesus, we're told throughout the scripture, sits at the right hand of God. Uh and that's where he ascended. He's there at the right hand. And here in the picture in Revelation 5, you see that the scroll comes from the right side. And who's the rightful person that has the authority to then go and grab it? It's the Lamb, it's Jesus Christ, uh, who's seated at the right hand of God. And so uh there is a reason to that, but really it's communicating that of authority uh and privilege and the ability to do so.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I mean I think also you think about in uh in warrior cultures or whatever, the king, where is your sword, right? And and generally you made that statement, it's the sign of authority. So that when a for a king, it was it was dishonoring for him to actually go out and do the work. Rather, he would command the work to be done, and then it was done. And I mean, you see a lot of reflection of this in Genesis when uh when the creation happens, it's not God going out and stitching together, you know, the lilies of the field and stuff like that. It it's God saying, Let there be light, and his agent of creation does it. And you know, theologically that's gonna be the the Son, Jesus. Right. And so uh some people will get tripped up a little bit by that because they'll say, Well, if the you know, if Jesus is at the right hand, then how is he also God? Again, back in that kind of a context, if someone sto the person who stood at the right hand of a king who functioned functioned that way, had the same status as the king. It for the king to allow someone to sit at the right hand was him raising in this team to be the ex to be the same as him, to be on the same status and honor level. Uh however, the difference being in this situation that whoever stood at the right hand willingly submitted to the will of the one who was on the throne. And so, I mean, in all those ways, we see Jesus completely align with that of how he can both be God and Son, both uh both God and the agent of creation uh and not a created being. Um so whenever you s whenever we see that, I mean, number one, it is a it's gonna be a sign of action, of movement, of of authorizing, of empowering. But it's important for us to also say to, especially as we read chapter five, not to look at this and say, well, it was just because Jesus stood up and was the right one to do it. There is some again heresy out there that Jesus was made the Messiah, became the Son of God because of his uh valor. Right. That's not what Scripture says. It says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God, and the word was God, and that word became flesh and dwelt among us. And so again, don't we need to be careful about getting tripped up on the timelines here? Um that more of the emphasis on this is the action rather than the even the sequencing by which it happens. Umil thing that we don't often, I think, pay attention to so much is the number one use of a scroll, which you know, I think we kind of get that, you know, you write on scrolls. But then this idea of seals. Uh we're gonna talk a lot about seals. And so, Jonathan, are we talking about the seals that stink up La Jolla and you know are in circuses and bounce balls on their nose and things like that?
SPEAKER_05I haven't seen that interpretation, but I like that interpretation. That's pretty funny.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, real seals are real mean.
SPEAKER_05The seals, I mean, they they are seals for the parchment for the scroll, so keeping it shut. And and that whole idea with the scroll, uh, you know, scrolls are there's a lot of interpretations. One with the scroll. I mentioned yesterday, excuse me, that I best see it as really the scroll is what's to come, uh, Revelation 6 through 22. Some people call it, uh have written about it, calling it the deed to creation, because there was a Roman connection too to scrolls that would be serve as a contract, a sealed scroll, a contract or a deed. And so it's also, I don't think that's an improper interpretation to say it's a symbolic thing, also showing that Jesus Christ has the deed to creation. He's earned that right and privilege. It's his. Um, but the scroll written on both sides, it would in Daniel, in Daniel chapter 12, the prophet was instructed to seal a scroll shut of the things that were to come. And so there was that picture that there's this incredible plan that Daniel was just scratching the surface of of what was gonna happen, and then it was gonna get shut up, like he didn't get to write it all. It just was shut up and then put there and wait, waited for a different time, and then you see it re-emerge here in revelation, and now it's gonna be opened, you know, through the revelation that John receives, that he gets to see the full picture that Daniel didn't apparently get to uh to share with us at that time.
SPEAKER_03Well, and we we know a little bit of ancient stationary using about the way that they did that. That in particular, what a seal was was melted wax. And so, in order to make sure that like so for official documents, um what it ev each person would have like a s what's called a signet ring, right? Um then they would write whatever the document was, close it, then melt wax on the part, and then press in their signet on it. What that did is it functioned as a signatory for it, so that that when you saw the signet ring picture on it, it was a symbol of the authority of the one sending it. But then likewise, only someone who had the authority to open it could legally open it. And if you tried to open it, you could be held liable for that. Um and so it's this idea of authority being passed to authority. Um and we see that in this in this passage because uh you know John starts crying because nobody can nobody can open it, which you may mention this in the sermon, but I think it there's such a great pic such a great picture in honesty right there that you know he says, Well, I just started weeping. It was it was horrible. It was the worst thing in the world. And and I I think we can kind of relate to that, right? That you know, not knowing what's going to happen. Yeah, gosh, that's that's the dis that's where despair is, right? Um and I I think you know, when we think about people going through natural disasters and stuff like that, it's usually less about what's happened to them and more about what am I gonna do now?
SPEAKER_05Well, well, and I would even say I if I was gonna apply it to a problem we have in the church, I think there's a lot of people that are weeping metaphorically, they're saddened because they don't know what's gonna happen because they're scared. They are scared, they see the magnitude of just what happened, what's going on in this world, and there's that unknown uh angst within us regarding uh the end of times and just what's to come. And that's the whole point is he tells them to don't cry. There's an answer. There's one who can open it, and then there's gonna be a revelation to explain what's inside of it. And so I think also for application of just our listeners, sometimes we just get down and out thinking, what on earth's going on in this world? And how's this gonna happen? And who's who's gonna do what? And how is all this gonna be fixed one day? And you don't have to cry. That's kind of the whole point of the picture is Jesus has it, and now he's gonna disclose his plan in the following chapters, and we can be ready and expectant of it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and in that way it's a grace that we're not left alone. Yeah, and I think that oftentimes existentially that's where we feel is oh, I'm left alone in this world to figure the everything out, and I can't rely on anybody else. And ultimately in this passage, there's nobody else that we can rely on other than the Lamb who oh who's able to open it. Um we're given that pathway of dependency, of grace. Uh, and as you see in the passage, there is this resulting worship and praise that comes out of it because he is the only one who could do it and he willingly does it. Um and so one of the things uh you talked about also yesterday, uh, before we get to the the back end of this, is this statement of standing next to the throne was a lamb that looked like as it was slain. So what what does that what does that mean particularly?
SPEAKER_05It's a picture, obviously, of of of Christ, but it's a it's a powerful picture because Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God, and we talked about that in the sermon that the lamb has always been this image of a substitutionary sacrifice throughout the Old Testament. Uh you see it with Abraham, when Abraham's going up Mount Moriah and he's there and he expects a lamb to be substituted for his son. Uh, you see it at Passover when a lamb is slaughtered as a substitutionary sacrifice for Israel, so God's wrath would pass over them. Uh and then you see it with Jesus when John the Baptist saw Jesus, he said, Behold the Lamb of God who's come to take away the sins of the world. So Jesus is communicated as that lamb, the perfect lamb of God, who came to serve as that substitutionary sac sacrifice for mankind. And you see him standing, which is interesting, which one communicates towards his resurrection, that now the lamb who was dead is now living in heaven, but then it also says he had the appearance that he was slain. And so that that's where I think a lot of people sometimes overlook that, that everybody can get to that point that, yeah, the Lamb of God was killed, and yes, he was resurrected, and yes, right now he's in heaven. And in that picture, it makes sense if he stands up, but he still looks dead, is what John said. Which what does that mean? We know Christ is in a glorified body, he doesn't look dead, but it looks like he's been slain, is what John said, which I believe is just the interpretation of of the marks of his crucifixion that are there eternally uh on his hands and his side that he showed Thomas the Doubter, who honestly we're more Thomas than than uh I think we we realized. I th I've always hated that nickname. I always feel bad for Thomas. I think we all owe him an apology when we go to heaven for calling him that. But he said, Hey, I need proof. Yeah. And Jesus said, Here you go. And it was there in his glorified body, and it's there as the Lamb of God in heaven right now.
SPEAKER_03And I think, you know, uh it it should change the way that we view, you know, when when Jes Jesus could have chosen any kind of ultimate form to be to to present himself as. I mean, that's his that's really what he takes what I guess he takes pride in, right? Ultimately that's what is the greatest mark of love. If God is love and we want and the desire of all people is to see what God looks like. We see that love demonstrated in sacrifice and in the wounds that he bears for us. Uh and that, you know, there's like that um there's a song that talks about my name is uh how does it go? Stephen, you may know this. My name is written on his hands, my name is graven on his heart, I think is what is what it goes. Yeah. Phillips Grigandean, you were talking about it earlier. Uh but anyway, that idea that where is his attention, where where is his passion, right? It's in that sacrifice for his people.
SPEAKER_05Well, and I think also it's a good uh reminder that even here on this earth, there are images and things that inspire us towards worship. Um in churches, oftentimes that comes in the form of crosses or stained glass or beautiful architecture. There's things like that.
SPEAKER_03Or laser light shows. Yes, I know. We go down a list.
SPEAKER_05Everybody has their own thing. But at the end of the day, my point is there is an aspect of visual representation of things that that communicate the gospel, communicate truth, inspire worship and the glory of God. And I agree. I think Jesus keeps those hands as an eternal reminder of his love. But also I think it will be there to serve as a reminder of the fact that he's worthy of what they say. And it and it I think will inspire others uh as we are in heaven to see that to once again give glory to God for what we've seen.
SPEAKER_03And let's talk about another then content question here, because it's another curiosity that that I have is how how in heaven things can appear in different ways, even though they're the same thing. So for instance, in chapter five, you have the lamb standing as as one slain, but then you also, even in that same passage, says, you know, the the lion of Judah has come to to conquer. And then before that, you have the the whitebearded right version of Jesus that we see in the first chapter. So how can it be that you have these three pictures, just even in this this context, these three pictures of of who Jesus is now? I mean, we'll see again even later. Chapter 19, riding in on a white horse, yeah. Um and so and tatted up too. Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, has a tattoo on his thigh.
SPEAKER_03So how so Jonathan, how how do you interpret that? That like is the is that a statement that all these pictures are just symbolic, or is there something real, uh, a real picture of it that's true?
SPEAKER_05I think John saw these things, and it's what he wrote, but I think what he saw, and this goes into a lot of the imagery that you get in Revelation, are things that are God is revealing to communicate truth to John. Uh, and I think all those pictures of the lion and the lamb and the triumphant king coming back, the conquering warrior in chapter 19, these are all facets of our God, of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, and you could it communicates truth about him. So I do believe theologically Jesus has a glorified body. He was resurrected, he's the first of resurrections to come. So I do believe he has a resurrection body in heaven, and that's who he is. But I think as John's seen in this revelation, which is given to help edify and build up the church, he's getting images that are communicating truths about about Jesus so that we can be uh so we can better understand him and worship him for who he is. Uh so I think there's a tension in there. You know, do I think when when we show up, we will see Jesus as as that as a lion, you know, up there or a lamb. I I think he's gonna be in a glorified body, would be what I would bank on.
SPEAKER_03The answer is yes.
SPEAKER_05But but at the same time, uh he gave those images for a reason. And I think I think that's why they're there is to communicate truth about him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and about the kind of the essence of who he is. Right. And I do think that that again gets back to the whole timeless timelessness conversation and the re the way the spiritual world interacts with ours. Right, you know, the both things can be true, that we can see this this risen sun and see all these things in him, and that they are very real, very really who his identity, what his identity is.
SPEAKER_05Well, and I think, and we'll get ahead to it, I won't preempt too much, but when we get to chapter 19 and you see the glorified Christ coming back down to this earth, I think there's also some things to look into that it's a balance of what's literal in the physical representation you see versus what is symbolic communicating of his his cause and what he's coming to do. And there's probably a tension in that that we don't fully know. But is Christ in a glorified body? Yes. Uh, and do these other things communicate about him? Yes. But we'll we'll see. One day we will see what he looks like, and it will be glorious, whatever it may be.
SPEAKER_03So as we kind of get toward the end here, one other picture that I wanted to uh to bring up for us to to chat a moment about uh is the uh it talks about these elders holding harps and then so again making music, but then you make they make this statement of golden bowls full of incense, then he goes on and says, which are the prayers of the saints. So what are we supposed to make of that? Like why why would if if John is identifying this incense that's in heaven, um how uh how can that be prayers? That that that how does that make sense?
SPEAKER_05It's given a picture that the prayers do make it to heaven, number one. I think that's one reason why that that picture is there. In fact, you're gonna see prayers from the saints come uh in different parts of Revelation. Even this coming weekend when I preach Revelation chapter six, there's talk of the prayers of the saints. Uh and they're they're praying there as well. But you see in that fifth chapter, like you said, it's described as golden bulls of incense. That's what the prayers of the saints are described, which to me is a reminder that our prayers are a fragrant aroma to the Lord, that He does receive those. And I think the point of that picture there is to remind us of that, that ultimately our prayers are received in heaven, they are a fragrant aroma to the Lord, they are pleasing. He does want to hear from us, and I think that's the main thing to take away from that imagery.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I I I agree with you because the the use of incense is designed to be pleasant, it's supposed to be this really good smelling kind of thing. Right. And you know, it's like if when you walk walk in the house and then someone's baking fresh cookies, it elicits an emotion. And you know, uh what I find interesting about this is that when when it talks about what makes God pleased in this, you don't I mean, the wor worship and the singing is definitely something good that's going on, but more directly you see him taking pleasure in number one the music. I mean that's so that they have the heart, but then also those prayers. And I think what that challenges us in is. What is the oftentimes we don't treat prayer in the same way that we treat worship. We treat prayer either as a necessity of something, well, I have to do this or else this these Cheetos are going to cause me to die because I have not blessed my meal appropriately. Sometimes it's it's just a laundry list of I wants, I once, I want, I want, I want. Um, and sometimes it's just meaningless, you know, saying the same thing over and over again because we believe that's gonna check a box. You know, I think it's I think it's a good idea when we're when we're considering the way that we pray, is this is the quality of what I'm praying something that would be pleasing to God in why would it be?
SPEAKER_05I agree. I think the quality of what we say, and I would also add double down on that of the quantity of what we say, because I think uh sometimes, I'm not sometimes all the time, I'll even say we just we just don't pray enough. Um, and I've always thought of it metaphorically like uh a father with his kids. I've got three kids. I would be upset if I weren't hearing from my kids, like if I didn't hear their voice ever, you know, if it was just rare, if they showed up on if I just heard their voice, you know, once a year at whatever at that and it's the same thing. You see that picture in the church, you know, if you pray on Easter and then you're not around after, or even if it's just every few days. And so much of prayer can be those short, sweet, small prayers as you're going. And I think those are a fragrant aroma to the Lord. And uh Jesus himself, it's worth noting that in the Sermon on the Mount, he says, when you pray in Matthew 6, and then in chapter 7, he said, Ask, seek, and knock. So there's an idea that you will pray, and when you pray, be persistent and continue to pray and let it let it keep going.
SPEAKER_03And I think it's interesting too when we look at the way that Jesus calls us to pray. He he even makes a state, because we we I've just made this claim of well, the the the quality of the prayer, does it does it reflect when Jesus talked about what quality a prayer was, he gives that that distinction between the Pharisee getting up there and talking about all his great stuff and using all this flowery language, and then the the it then it says the tax collector kneels beside him, beating his chest, saying, Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. And the the second one is the one that's raised up as this is true quality. And how is that how is that possible when the other guy had done such a great job of crafting his prayer? Right. It's because it's not about the words that you use, but the but the heart behind it and the the vulnerability and authenticity with which we we pray. I mean, I think about why why is faith like a child honored so much and in the Bible? It's because it it just is. I mean, if a kid wants candy, they're not gonna beat around the bush. They're gonna say, hey, dad, can I have this? And I will say, No, you cannot have it. Right. Then I'll sneak it later. That's what that's that's how we dads do. But the the nature of this is that we when we when we consider our prayers, those of us who believe, rise up like a pleasant aroma to God, are we giving him that the quality that he wants? Are we are we the kind of worshippers that God desires? Uh, I'm trying, I'm drawing a blank right now on um uh there's a there's a biblical passage that says the worshippers that God desires. Um, and I'll find it here while uh while we keep thinking about this. But um I think you know, quantity and quality are both are both important. I mean they they both have to be present.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, one thing that I've even noticed in my with my own personal prayer life, a lot of times I'll find myself praying for specific things from God. Like if I'm anxious about something, I'll pray, Lord, please give me peace about this or something. And I've realized if I actually start that with Lord, you are holy, yeah, you are able to handle this. And I started from a position of I know God's got this, yeah, and then turn into please help me as I go through this, it ends up kind of changing the way I even feel about the situation.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I agree. Cause I would I would add to that. I think the reason why is worry and worship can't coexist in the same space. Uh, I think when you when you do truly worship God, like you said, and it really worship is you uh attuning your heart to who he is, and it's you ascribing worth to God in your heart for who he is and what he's done. When you start to see him as holy, holy, holy like they do. I agree the worries start to melt away. And once again, I I know I've saying the same thing again, but I believe that's why John gets this throne room vision because there's a lot of worry about the things to come and what's gonna happen in the future. And before he gets into the future, he just wants us to worship and say he's worthy and he's holy and he's holy and he's holy. Everything's gonna be okay. He's in charge. Uh, but I think that's just a good reminder that worry, worry and worship they don't coexist in the same space. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And there's no better person to have planned the end times than God. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I think he's qualified. He's in great hands. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I f I found the verse I was referring to. It's John chapter four. Um, so again, John's talking here, but this is in uh verse 23. But now the hour is coming and now is here. Again, that that coming in the present and future, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. For the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth. So again, that there is that idea of the spiritual aspect of this, of understanding who he is, but then also the truthful aspect of it of stop stop pretending and be real with him. Um so I think I hope that that is kind of an encouragement to uh to those of you who feel like you may not have the words to pray, you may not have a theological education and talk talk real big word stuff. Um but the reality is God just wants you, he wants your heart. He wants and he wants be he created you because he loves you. And he doesn't need you to be somebody else. He needs you to be yourself and trust in him. And that makes all the difference.
SPEAKER_05Well, and I love that passage you brought up because you know you know this already, but who's he speaking to there? The woman at the well. It's the woman at the well, it's the Samaritan woman. And you talk about somebody that doesn't have it all together and that's a mess. And then and that's exactly what he said. He's inviting her in. Uh, and it's just a good reminder to us that we're all invited in to experience really a taste of that throne room here on this earth. We get to approach the throne, we're told, on earth. Uh, and heaven hears those prayers that we have a high priest who's interceding, and those prayers are, like you already said, they're a pleasing aroma. Uh, so today we get to worship uh with him on that throne and experience a taste of heaven here on this earth.
SPEAKER_03And so in this portion, we really uh we really kind of get a foundation laid for the rest of what's going to happen in this section of Revelation. And we're given the eternal present of what's going on. I think one of the big encouragements the big encouragements I hope you take from this is that if heaven is the height of existence, if it's the thing that we were always made for, and the main activity that they're doing there is worship, then we uh we need to we need to ask ourselves the question if we know that that is ult the ultimate purpose of our humanity, then why is it not now? And then how and then secondarily to that, worship is not just about singing, but about all sorts of things, where uh so as it says elsewhere, um whatever your hand finds to do, work at it with all your heart, and it's working for the Lord, not for men, then how can we begin to ascribe worth to God out in every aspect of our lives and thereby grow into this existence that God created us to do? Um, I think that's gonna be a challenge for everybody of how are you worshiping the best in everything that you do between conflict resolution, how are you worshiping, how are you watching sports and worshiping, how are you uh grilling a steak, and when there's a lot of men's stuff here, um women could fill in their thing there. Ultimately look at the things that you're doing and saying, Am I doing this to the honor or the glory of God? And how much better could these these the occupations of my life be? And how much more would it already look like heaven if it were done with the spirit of worship? So I think that's really kind of one of the big things I take from this as application today. But Jonathan, anything else for the listeners before we sign off today?
SPEAKER_05No, I agree. I think you said it well. We were made to worship, so worship now. Don't wait for heaven. You can start worshiping today.
SPEAKER_03Stephen, anything for everybody?
SPEAKER_00Just hoping Jesus gives you hope for the future.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, friends, we hope that you'll join us next time as we continue in this podcast. And just as a note, this Sunday we will be continuing the Revelation series. You can check out the uh videos of our sermons on our YouTube channel. Just look up Austin Baptist Church. These two, the podcast and the sermon series go together like peanut butter and jelly. Though there's quite a bit more peanut butter than there is jelly, I think, when we when we have these hour-long podcasts. But we thank you for taking the time today to join us on behalf of Jonathan and Stephen. We hope that you have a great week, and we'll see you next time on the Citizen ATX podcast.