Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Revelation_Directors Cut: The Dragon and the Beasts
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I suppose you could say that John was envisioning: "Demons and Dragons and Beasts...Oh My!" With dreams like that you have to imagine that John really wasn't getting a lot of sleep... In any case, isn't it great that God gave us a path to avoid all of the destruction that will come from these evil creatures?! Join Matt, Jonathan, and Stephen as they discuss Revelation 12 & 13.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillum, and we're glad that you're joining us as we're continuing our series, Revelation Director's Cut. Taking time each week to walk alongside what's happening in our sermon series here at Austin Baptist Church as Pastor Jonathan Spencer is going through the series on Revelation. We didn't, as always, we'd encourage you to check that out. There's a lot of great material there as we've been preaching through these things. But I want to welcome to the studio with me Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Howdy, Matthew. And then also Stephen Vaughn. Hello, Stephen. Hello. And so last time we did this intro, Steven had a pop culture reference that nobody understood. So I think we're on the good track this time. I think we're going well this time. Only go up from here. Yeah, only up. Or down, as it would happen with Revelation 12 and 13. How about that?
SPEAKER_01Talk about things that are hard to understand.
SPEAKER_02It's about on point. It is about to get weird. All right. So in these two chapters, when we're talking about uh 12 and 13, we we kind of change um uh modes a little bit here, where all of a sudden where we had something resembling what what you could possibly follow as an actual literary train, all of a sudden it kind of goes into this all the symbolic language and stuff like that. And so, Jonathan, I mean why why is that? Why why do we think that here, right in the middle, smack dab middle of the book of Revelation, all of a sudden do we get all of these kind of um I would say unclear characters, maybe maybe not unclear, but um highly symbolic characters.
SPEAKER_01And new characters for sure. New, I think, would be the right, you know, terminology. I mean, there have been characters, so to be fair, there's been characters throughout this, and there's definitely been plenty of symbols and things that we're trying to unpack. I mean, we've talked about horses and we've talked about uh all kinds of things with seals and trumpets and all kinds of just things that are confusing at the surface level. But with this, you have come out, you know, a dragon and two beasts. And uh, and you know, as far as why, I think these two chapters they provide some information contextually on really how did we get here to this moment of the revelation, of really the tribulation that we're talking about. So there's some backstory that you're gonna get to understand through these chapters, but also there's gonna be some understanding of what's going on in the chapters we've already talked about, because we've been talking about dark times uh over the course of the tribulation, and here we get to actually look at really the key players of those dark times. So it kind of gives us a little bit of insight on what we've been studying.
SPEAKER_02Well, and John gives us a little bit of a clue there, right, in verse one where he says he he prefaces all this with a great sign appeared in heaven. So it definitely is a change of pace, a shifting of gears. Uh, and you know, as we get into this, you have a couple of people. First, this woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. And so we talked about this in the sermon on Sunday that you believe this is probably symbolic for Israel as God's people. Correct. I I do I do wonder, you know, if if that's the case. One of the one of the things that's that's that's interesting when we get into symbolic language is that there there can be a lot of different interpretations of it. I mean, one that I would say is probably the most common, and I actually to the extent what makes me think about this is a statue I saw one time uh in in Poland, actually, um was of Mary serving in this. So like this idea that is this one so because this woman is giving birth to a child, a lot of people will look at that and say, Well, that's Mary, and especially those coming from a Roman Catholic background with with her uh reputation as the queen of heaven, the idea of her standing on top, uh clothe the sun standing on top of the moon. I mean, there's some there's kind of some feeling that way. Others might look at this and say, Well, this this is you know, we're gonna let's let's rewind it even further back to Adam and Eve in the garden, that this is Eve and giving birth to humanity in general and all that. Um so Jonathan, I mean, what's what's your response on that?
SPEAKER_01Well, the problem is if you go that route, it doesn't make sense when you're trying to explain the woman later in the passage. Because it will you could make that argument perhaps on the front end, but on the back end of this chapter, it talks about that woman fleeing to the wilderness during the Great Tribulation, during the 1,260 days. So, you know, the Virgin Mary, she's been gone for a while. And and unless there's something miraculous that people are going to point towards there, there's no indicator of why she would mysteriously show up and flee to the wilderness during the Great Tribulation. Some people have also contended uh that it's the church, that this would be symbolic of the church as the woman. Uh, but once again, uh to me, when I look at these characters, before anything, when you're looking at a sim symbol, the best interpretation of it is scripture. How do you interpret scripture? The best way is with scripture. And and you got to look to the text of did God already give us clarity on who this person is? I think in the text, the two most, you know, obvious things there are what you said, the description of the clothing, how how the woman's clothed, which is a direct quote from Joseph's dream in j in uh Genesis chapter 37, and then who she gave birth to. And who she gave birth to was Psalm 27, and it's a messianic psalm speaking toward pointing towards Jesus Christ. So so to me, it has to be, I wouldn't use the word Israel, I'd use believing Israel, symbolic, uh, because I think there is clarity of this. It's faithful Israel, and Mary certainly was a part of faithful Israel bringing Christ into this world. Uh, but I think the picture's bigger than just Mary.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I do think it kind of speaks to that dual nature of the way the symbolic language works, where you know, it could in some ways be two things, where you have one being the shadow of another or one the representation of another. That in a lot of ways, when you look at who Mary was, I mean, she is that fulfillment of what God said would happen through the Davidic dynasty and who Israel was supposed to be. I mean, and ultimately that's who Jesus is, is he is the one that uh that fulfills who Jesus was supposed to be. And so with that, I mean, do we you know, we talked about chronologically here kind of how all this happens, and so that we're we seem like we're kind of removed from the timeline here, really more to general ideas, but it it is interesting that there in verse six it doesn't make that statement of the 1260 days. So, I mean, is this is this interaction of her flying in the wilderness and stuff like that? Is that happening? Do we think that's happening during the tribulation, or is this kind of a symbol of something of just a general concept?
SPEAKER_01I see this two parts. I think on that first part on verses one through five, it's talking about the first advent of Christ. So that's all looking backward to believing Israel, bringing the Christ into the world, and Satan trying to stop Christ from fulfilling his mission. He fails because we're told the Son ascends to his throne in verse five. And then verse six, I see as a transitional verse, getting us back really to the great tribulation. So it's shifting gears of the same woman, different generation, being faithful, believing Israel. And so uh then it points back to where we really have been in the narrative of Israel and all the saints, Gentile and Jew, taking on the persecution from the dragon and ultimately the beast that we'll talk about during that time of tribulation. So I think it shifts gears back to the future, I believe, in the following verses.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, and something that we were talking about off-air that you don't normally hear talked about in in this kind of conversation, but I'm my interest is peaked about dragons, right? We're gonna go dungeon and dragons here, folks. But no, this idea that like you know, immediately after this, you have this red dragon up here, right? And one of the things, and this is really more of a sidebar than anything else, I find it interesting that the idea of even though there are not dragons around now, I mean, you look at Chinese, English, uh, Roman, uh, Greek, Jewish, Persian, all of these different uh cultures across all across the world had a conception of this thing like a dragon. Um now, I mean, there's it's possible that based on our spiritual knowledge of the infinite and the the way that the enemy has always revealed himself to an extent, that there is this idea in the in the mind of mankind that there is this kind of creature that exists, or there could have just been dragons around at some point. So I don't know. I mean, I think you listener have to decide. But on a on a kind of a bigger, bigger standpoint here, you you have this interaction of Satan as the as the dragon, um, and uh you have him basically sweeping out from heaven uh his arm an army of angels, um, which again, you know, Jonathan, you talked about that a lot in the in the uh sermon yesterday. But one of the things that often is talked about, again, back to chronology, is when does this happen? That you know, uh we we uh I think our problem is often we look at revelation as something that is future based, that's going to happen, but then you know, how did Satan I mean how did Satan be active before this time? Because apparently he is throughout scripture. So I mean what y'all what are y'all thinking on that?
SPEAKER_01Well, I see the the event giving a picture of what it's already been alluded to before that Satan had a fall. We talked about that actually. The fall that I believe happened before Adam and Eve's fall, and so it's pointing towards uh the Isaiah 14, 12 picture of him falling. And so I I think it gives, once again, understanding to the battle because why is that verse put in there? I think it's given to give understanding of why the dragon want to eat that child. Like, why is there a fight? Like, why is that there? I think if you don't see that as actually from the original, you know, from before the fall, then you wouldn't understand why he is he is trying to go after Jesus. And so to me, that's why I believe, you know, interpretively, it has to be pointing back towards uh when Satan originally was cast out of heaven. He took with him a third of the angels, they became the demons, and they became ultimately his army. And then at that point it's him and his army against God and his army in a spiritual battle that still continues to this day.
SPEAKER_02Well, so Stephen, I know you said off air you had another opinion on that. So what are you thinking about that?
SPEAKER_04Well, um there's an idea that's floating around that I've kind of thought a little bit about that if there is no time in heaven, is it possible that there are moments where Satan's cast out and he goes to two different places once he leaves heaven and enters back into time? So he goes to the beginning of time and the end of time at the same time. I would argue no, because he's not God.
SPEAKER_01Um so God God is omnipresent. So you gotta always remember so the dragon is is a counterfeit to God. We talked about that a lot yesterday. And so if he's a counterfeit to God, it means he's a wannabe, but he can't do the things God can do. God is omnipresent, so God is everywhere at all times. Uh, he's also everlasting to everlasting, so he exists outside of time. But the dragon was a created finite being, and he still is to this day. I don't believe the devil can be in a a thousand locations all simultaneously. Right now, I do believe he has demons that work for him, and he has a spiritual army that is definitely doing work all around the world. But sometimes when people like stub their toe and they blame it on the devil, I'm like, the devil's got better things to do than you. I think he's worried about other things than you and your toe and you saying a potty word.
SPEAKER_02And apparently the devil works for Lego.
SPEAKER_01Because really, the devil is a finite created being. We give him too much credit. And so he is not omnipresent. Uh, and consequently, I do think that he roars like a lion, as Peter tells us, and he's looking for people to devour. But I if I were going to presume on his tactics, I would bet he's pretty selective on who he attacks. Yeah. And he's going after like it, was he at going after Billy Graham? Maybe. That seems like that'd be a good attack right there. But does he go after, like I said, the person stubbing their toe in their living room? Probably not. He's probably got bigger fish he's trying to fry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I I I would tend to agree that I mean, while there is some, you know, uh interesting conceptions of the way that time works when you have eternity eternity overlay overlaid with time, I think the the problem with the idea of him going two places at once it assumes a separation of the two. Yeah. Because the in reality, eternity and time coexist, they they are together. And and so regardless of where in the site where in the chronological linear timeline this happens, uh it it is a historical event, and for us at least, if not in the the heavenly realms as well. Um and to one of your points about the devil appearing at the end of time, also, uh, when we get I'm not gonna give a spoiler alert, but you know, if you've ever read, I mean, everybody who's read the book of Revelation knows that he's not gonna be there at the end. That he will he'll be somewhere being at the lake of fire. He ain't gonna be happy. And technically, if we're if we're talking about this, you know, mostly the book of Revelation, time is still going on. Like we do have the procession of the trumpets, the seal, the seals, the trumpets, the bowls. And so, I mean, at this point, time and matter and nature have not been done away with. Um and even realistically, matter is not gonna be done away with, but that's we can talk about that more later. Yep. So talking though about Satan as a created being, there is a there's a I think a pretty challenging uh thought cycle that we have to work through. So, first, if Satan is a created being and his role is as allegedly as temptation, so we talked about this on Sunday that the word shaitan in uh in Hebrew means the adversary, and um he's called the enemy, and and even to the extent that when he's uh in the book of Job, that's his role is the accuser. So if if he's a created being and that is so much his identity that the it's the the name that he's been given, does that make God the author of temptation? Because we look at Satan, and you you see in the Bible he's called the father of lies and things like that. But as a created being, what role does God as creator play in the action that Satan is doing?
SPEAKER_01God has zero culpability in in Satan's choices. And what I mean by that is Satan made his choices, but God did not create uh ultimately his uh temptation. In fact, you have to go back to the word of God. This is where once again you gotta let Scripture interpret Scripture, because James chapter one, we're told, let no one say when he is tempted, I'm being tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. Right. So it goes against God's very nature and character to tempt someone, including, I would argue, the devil, you know, going back to his original fall. He didn't lure him and entice him to to choose darkness over light, because God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. And so consequently, Satan's fall is on Satan, it's on him. Uh, and we've all been given this capacity to make decisions. God's given us this capacity to choose, and seemingly Satan was given a capacity to choose as well, and he chose poorly, and then his objective from that moment forward was to get others to choose poorly with him uh and really choose themselves over God. And so, no, I think I think it it it goes against scripture to then put put the blame back on God.
SPEAKER_02Right. And I I think it's something that always has to be addressed because you do have you know some who are um radical determinists to the extent that you know Satan didn't have a choice and he just that's you know just what he did, and so then that does make God the author of evil. But you know, the re the when as we talk about the role of free will, the role of uh and and honestly I would say it's even beyond free will to identity of who we are. I mean, I think sometimes we we get a little bit um off base when we consider uh that you know we we're just a blank slate. Like we're gonna we're we're you know, a a human being is you know, they're always gonna make right choices until something else influences them or something like that. I mean, I think that's that's foolishness. I I it it is part of our when we talk about what sin nature is, I'm not gonna be of the camp that says, well, when you're born, you're born with sin on you already. Um I do think though that we're born with an identity, with a identity with our father Adam that means that we will sin. I mean it's gonna be inevitable that we're gonna find ourselves in that place. And so with Satan, it uh we have to take the same argument that that direction that you know even if he was the chief among the angels at some point, which is I don't know that that's ever actually a biblical thing. It uh d does it ever actually say that or it doesn't necessarily call him the chief.
SPEAKER_01It says that he's like a the bright beautiful and uh the beautiful morning star.
SPEAKER_02But I mean anyway, that out of his identity of who he was, his personality, which is another whole other kettle of fish, the fact that angels have personalities and make choices about things. Um I think it I think it is a m a much deeper thing about and and also about how we're cultivating ourselves. That you know realistically we have the same opportunity to make the same choices that Satan made. And conversely, we have the same opportunity to make the same choices that Jesus makes and that the angels made, the the good guys. Right.
SPEAKER_01Well, in a sense also, I I would even take it a step further that I think everyone without if you don't receive Christ, you are making the decision Satan made. Like I would argue because we all do sin and fall short of the glory of God, and we're all born into this world. Uh sin is passed through one man, Romans 5, 12, so it's passed to all men. And so we born into this world, we're all sinners, we all screw up. And and we are making that choice, like you said, we are following him. I mean, at the end of the day, that he's called the king of this earth, and we follow him and we follow the ways of the first Adam, unless you come to know Christ and you follow the new Adam and Him.
SPEAKER_02Well, and that's how Jesus can make that claim of the Pharisees that the that they're the children of the devil. Yeah. And to place place that law on other people that you have no intention of carrying out yourself, and a law that you can't fulfill, and that ultimately places others into slavery. And so, um, you know, I do think I think the the important piece of this, we have to get away from our conception of who Satan is as of a demigod, is really where if we're talking about just general culture, that is even to the extent of seeing a big red dragon, that that's a kind of a scary thing, I think. I mean, it's designed to be scary, um, but at the same time, he's a created being. And you when you look even at Hebrews, it talks about the role of of mankind uh as opposed to angels, and really we're not that far apart at the end of the day. And if you want to talk about what what empowers you, what grows you, what make gives you strength is that power of God in us, the power of Christ in us. And so, you know, when it comes down to that that balance of fear and imagination and stuff like that, I think we need to kind of take more of a uh C. S. Lewis version of understanding of of the devil as a bureaucrat, like as as he is in the uh screw tape letters. So yeah, it's fantastic. Um so I mean, with that though, we we keep moving in on here in the story, and we hit we see some kind of weird stuff start happening because well, there's already dragons and stuff, so why not? Let's just jump on in. But one of the things it says that he does is he like shoots a jet of water out of his mouth. So it says, let's see, I need to find it. It's it's later in the chapter. It's when the woman's fleeing in the wilderness. Yeah, and so it says that he uh so verse 15. The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with a flood, but the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth swallowed its mouth and opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. Um so what's happening?
SPEAKER_01There's a lot. I I think there's gonna I'll preface by saying we don't know a hundred percent. We'll keep it a little bit at that. Leap, I think we need to be open-handed on on this one. But if you read some different commentators of what that means, some some thought the water coming in their mouth, I read this, that that they saw it as symbolic potentially of an army. And the reason why is that Jeremiah, I think it's in the 46th and 47th chapter, he describes the arm an army as a great flood. And so some think that, well, maybe this means the dragon and also the beast and the second beast will then be using great armies and forces to oppress and go after the remnant of Israel, who I believe once again is believing Israel that's fleeing. Uh, some also have thought that the flood waters might just be symbolic of blasphemous and arrogant words. Uh but at the end of the day, uh, we don't know a hundred percent. We just know what we do know is that water, and really it's evil water, if you will, comes out from his mouth trying to devour and stop God's people, the the remnant of Israel, the believing Israel.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's really interesting that the earth says the earth opened its mouth and I mean it it you have these kind of interactions that you know are hard to kind of hard to understand. And um, you know, the other part of this being that if if the dragon going after the woman is uh Satan going after the people of Israel, we have to consider then that somehow this is some action that the enemy is gonna going to or made against Israel and yet uh and yet Israel, believing Israel was spared. Um and then but when we when we look at this then you you see him move on in verse 17, and then the dragon dragon became furious with a woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Um I mean if the the if there wasn't anything else in this passage that spoke toward the woman being Israel, I think that does. When you see the actions over history of of the enemy toward the Jewish people, of the pogroms of the Middle Ages to the Holocaust, yeah, to Herod just kind of going nuts on on just a bunch of Jewish babies. I mean it's yeah the as a people group, it has been amazing how consistently and cyclically uh the general culture of the world has turned on them and tried to blame everything on them and then attack them.
SPEAKER_01Well, and also I'll add to that, it also shows you how God has opened up the earth, if you will, to swallow them and protect them over and over again. Like I mean, you see both sides of it. I think if you look through history, you can see satanic forces at work trying. To attack the woman, but you can also see throughout history it makes no sense. Like they keep living, like they they they persevere, even though they're a small, uh in many ways, powerless nation that suddenly is able to grow and ultimately establish the nation state as we see today.
SPEAKER_04I also saw like there's in uh 1214, it talks about the woman getting the eagle's wings. I made kind of an interesting connection of that to Isaiah 4031, where he talks about mounting on wings like eagles and that sort of thing. Uh just kind of that idea of um you know faith enduring with God, yeah. And that he can give you the I guess I think of the wings as more of like a a faith that is able to withstand a lot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. The wings always communicate protection from God, and the wings actually come up a lot through the Psalms as well, uh, where you talk about the Lord's protecting them under his wings. And so it's the same imagery. I I brought up Exodus 19 yesterday, because same thing. It would then God was uh rescuing Israel from the Egyptians. He said metaphorically that he took them on his eagle's wings, so he protected them. So you see the same image there, but I also want to give a little bit of clarity here. This was one point I didn't get to get into yesterday. So I believe this is the believing Israel. I believe this is the remnant Israel. This is all happening, I believe, during that time of great tribulation where all catastrophic things have happened, most likely. The world has fallen apart, the antichrist is blaming Israel and the church and just believers. And so there's all this oppression because they are not worshiping the Lord. And there will be, I think, opposition against the Jews in general, just like there's already opposition now. It's just going to become much more escalated. But those who are being protected, I believe that is the remnant, believing Israel. But there was a verse in Zechariah I didn't get to bring up yesterday, but but Zechariah 13, 8, we're told, in the whole land declares the Lord, two-thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. And that's prophecy that many people have looked to from Zechariah, pointing towards basically two-thirds of Israel be killed at that point, which is an interesting thought too. So for the woman that you see protected, I believe once again that's believing Israel, but will many Jews still die and and not repent and believe in Christ? Zechariah seems to point towards that, that many will die. Uh, and and many will not all, I don't believe all will repent. Um, so it's it's a sad reality though. But but you get in the numbers, I thought that's just an interesting prophecy that one third shall be left alive, but many of them will perish. Many will perish and not be held under his wing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And uh as we as we continue in it, you know, there's another another piece of this that I that I don't know, just from a literary standpoint that I find uh chilling, I guess is a good word, is that there at the the la the last part of the last verse of chapter 12 where it says that and then Satan stood on the sand of the sea. I mean, it's that's if there's nothing like as I'm looking at that and thinking about that picture in my mind, is this picture of Satan just sitting there watching, waiting. And I I do think, you know, when we when we you you made a statement earlier about how what Satan's interaction with the world is, and that he can't be everywhere all at once, and that may realistically be what's what he's really doing right now, is less so being uh active or actually doing anything other than control sending sending out his his little armies to go and to delegate and stuff like that, like Legion going to the pigs and all that. And otherwise he's just roaming around through the earth waiting. And it's that's not in some ways that's like, okay, well, you know, that that maybe that's a good thing until you think about like you've made mention of before African Safari, the assault of lions roaring outside in the darkness. I don't know. There, there that's that's a pretty chilling kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01If you want to hear, all right, I'll give you a stupid pop culture illustration. I brought up Avengers the other day. I don't remember which episode we were on, but I was talking about something apocalyptic. So I I Avenged, I just watched uh Avengers Infinity War. I hadn't seen it in a long time, probably since it came out, but I just watched it uh a couple weeks ago. If you go watch that again after you've read Revelation 12 and 13, it's interesting the parallels though. But I'm in all seriousness, because what what made me just think of it, Matt, was Thanos. He's kind of that dragon-like figure, if you will, in that story.
SPEAKER_02The big old purple chin.
SPEAKER_01But Thanos is only in certain locations during that apocalyptic area. And lots of times he's sitting and reflecting and thinking, but then also who you see sent out, you see, see that mouthy guy who's that false prophet that then comes out and he's pointing towards as well for everybody to worship. Um, but anyway, I just watched that funny enough, like two weeks ago, and I was like, I was like, oh dang. I was like, I'm I'm preaching this movie right now, and and and it's all been ripped off.
SPEAKER_02But that is a bit that is also the nature of a king, though, right? Yeah, and even when we when we'll talk about one of the big things you talked about as we move into chapter 13 is this idea of a satanic trinity right here. Um but in in a context where you're dealing with a king, a king does not get up out of his chair. Like he doesn't, he doesn't do much. He doesn't or I say that, he doesn't move around that much. Like he sits and he reigns from his from his seat. The real the real show of power is who he delegates and pushes out to go do what he wants him to do. And we see that we see the reason why we make that statement of it being counterfeit, and you see, um, as you talked about in the sermon, that idea of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. But the Father, the Son is the one who is the agent of creation, the one who is who stands at his right hand and ready is ready to act on his father's behalf by his father's will, and then the Holy Spirit is the one that heralds all of it.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, that's that's what we're gonna see here in a second with this uh satanic trinity. Um I do think i i I one of the questions that I had with this, especially to this idea of a satanic trinity, the trinity is not necessarily an idea that I think is self-evident most of the time. You know what I mean? Like I don't if I if I'm understanding God, it's it's hard for me to understand that three in one part of this. But then when you have this revelation of Satan and then the Antichrist and then the false prophet, how is it that people wouldn't know would make that kind of a connection? Or or because because ultimately when they're looking at these three, they say, Well, this is God and this is the the the savior and this is the spirit. So how how do you think it is that we make that connection, even though it's not a concept that we would not necessarily just uh immediately come to in our own mind?
SPEAKER_01Well, we make the connection as believers, because I think the Holy Spirit reveals that to us and shows it to us, the truth, and and ultimately the word of God is the truth, and it's a lamp into our feet and a light into our path. So the Holy Spirit illuminates things to us through the lens of his scripture. So I think I think as we read the text, you can see the parallel there. Now it's a counterfeit, like I've said in the pulpit, so it's not a perfect parallel because there are uh failures where the dragon doesn't match up to the father, the antichrist can't be the Christ, and likewise the false prophet cannot be the Holy Spirit, and likewise they cannot have that perfect triune uh community, if you will, that our Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have together as well. So they're not equal parallels, like they're not equals, but at the same time, the whole idea of a counterfeit is it's a cheap ripoff. Like it's something you're trying to emulate, but you can't quite pull it off. And to me, that is exactly what Satan is doing. I said it uh early in the sermon yesterday, I believe, but I talked about how Satan ultimately can't create anything. We all once again give him too much credit. We always think he can do things and he has unlimited power. No, he does not. He cannot create, he's created, but he can emulate, and that's what he does is he emulates and he uses the power that God had given him, and he uses that power for wrong. He uses it by emulating things and leading it to destructive forces. So that to me, I think is what he did is he emulated the the trinity that he knew well. He was created by the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and he decided he just was going to create his own. That's what I see in the text.
SPEAKER_02Well, we see that in the world, right? Where you uh you look at the NFL, like then people might not like Bill Belichick, but the amount of times people have tried to mimic and emulate what he does and make a counterfeit version of that football team, um ultimately leads to failure most of the time, but it is an interesting concept. I do I do also wonder um when we look when we see these groups of people that are being misled by the Antichrist, and as we talk about this ultimate group of people that are that are uh here at the end that are that are seeing all of these um uh terrible miracles, I'll put it that way, yeah, the plagues, the the wrath poured out, there is it's it's strange to me that atheism is not a part of this conversation. You know, I I think you know, in i if you were to ask a lot of at least believers around, they would see the role of atheistic philosophy being the greatest evil, like the the biggest super villain or whatever, the Lex Luthor uh the Lex Luthor to Christianity's Superman kind of thing, where it's like, well, this is the yeah, that's the villain, we've got to fight back against atheism. But everything that we see here at the end at the end of time is a high highly, maybe even hyper-religious interaction of people, even to the extent that they're buying and selling, becomes part of a religio a religious practice. So, I mean, what what's your what's your response on that, Jonathan? Like you mean, and how does that relate to the role how we see the role of atheism interact with with us now?
SPEAKER_01Well, every person's religious. I think anybody that says they're not, they're a liar. I think every everybody's worshiping something. Everybody lifts up something and idolizes something, values something above all things. Everybody makes sacrifices in their lives for things. Like we we all worship something. Uh it's just what are you worshiping? And usually the Bible tells us most of the world we're worshiping the wrong stuff. And so it's fitting that at the end of time you have worship happening and it's clear as day. Now, the things that change at that point is the worship becomes forced in one avenue because people no longer get to choose what they want to worship. Like they're they really have two choices at that point worship God, the true God, and have their head cut off because that's what Revelation 24 says will happen, or worship the dragon, the antichrist, the prophet, all of them working together, and then you'll be fed. And and so it's no longer actually worship by faith, it's worship by sight. And they are choosing then to worship a counterfeit God out of their own uh sake of self-preservation. And so uh it's interesting and it's fitting that the end of times it comes back to worship. I mean, ultimately you will make a choice and you'll know you're making a choice at that point. Like right now, when I say in a mic that everybody's a worshiper, there might be somebody out there listening, I'm not worshiping something, and you might try to argue that philosophically with me, and I think you're wrong. But at the same time, you might make that argument, but on that day, on the last days, it will be evident, self-evident. You will take the mark and you will worship the dragon, or you will worship the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be killed. Uh but there's only two options on the table at that point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've always thought it was interesting. There's a there's a philosopher named Douglas O. Wilson who uh who wrote that the a the atheist believes two things. One, there is no God, and number two, I hate him. Yeah. And it it's a I I think that when we look at that brand of philosophy, of thought, of religion, I mean generally it's it is not a it it's a place where people tend to be, I think, fooling themselves. To your point, everybody is a worshiper, but to pretend like they're not, right and to pretend that that they are the governor of their own person and all that kind of stuff, there ultimately is that devotion going some other way. Um so I d what what I think ultimately with this is that while atheism is a terrible thing and definitely something we need to be ready to argue against, it seems more likely that we need to be prepared as as believers to combat spiritual practices that were that worship things other than God, and that um especially as it gets to the worship of of mankind itself, which we'll talk about here in a minute. Um so there they're in chapter 13. We also start to see new, so again, new characters revealed. You have two more. Um, you have the first beast and the second beast. And the first beast, you see a whole slew of animals that are included in it. Um and I and I will say this if you're reading, listener, the book of Revelation and you're seeing number chapter 13 and all these animals, and think that is a goofy looking kind of kind of thing, don't get so lost in the actual picture of what it might look like versus the essence of the things that are being being named. Um so, Jonathan, though, when when we have this first beast come up, why is it that you associate that with the idea of an Antichrist?
SPEAKER_01Because it's pretty much out of Daniel chapter seven. And I think this is where you gotta let scripture, once again, interpret scripture, the imagery that's put on that beast pretty much comes explicitly, almost verbatim, a lot of it, out of Daniel chapter seven. Uh, and so the imagery there points towards uh I don't know if I'll you want me to go through it all again, but I'd talk about this at length in the sermon, that there's these three beasts. So you first hear about the leopard, the bear, the lion, those were three empires that Daniel prophesied about in Daniel chapter seven. So you see now another beast emerge. It's really the culmination of the best, the biggest strengths of those three empires that the Jews knew. But Daniel also prophesied about a fourth beast that would show up, and that fourth beast had ten horns, much like this beast. Uh, but that also that fourth beast had a little horn that was blasphemous, just like this beast. And so what you see with this beast coming out of Revelation is that he is really the culmination of what Daniel talked about. Daniel was seeing that there would be a fourth empire, which was Rome, but he also saw that there was going to be another empire that would arise through that little horn that would come from the ten horns. So what you see here is that fulfillment, that this final beast is ultimately a worldwide empire, is the idea. It's a picture that really shows that this empire to come will have the strengths of all those other world empires, the best of the best of those strengths. Uh, but he will, this empire will also blaspheme God and and mandate for people to uh worship the dragon as opposed to the Lord Jesus Christ. Um, but without understanding Daniel, you can't understand that. Then you're just like, instead, you're just gonna draw some crazy drawings and say, is this what's gonna happen? There's gonna be something come out of the ocean, some wild-looking, you know, dinosaur beast. And it's like, no, no, well, this is actually a person and a kingdom. Uh, and it's and it's described throughout prophecy, specifically Daniel 7 being cited there.
SPEAKER_02Uh here's a question. Um who makes the Antichrist? Like in the in this case, you know, it's you see it come up out of the sea. And so uh is this a creature, like an angel that is you know, subverted by by uh Satan to do his work? Is it a human being that he basically misleads to the extent that he you know maybe not possesses but has the complete dominion over him?
SPEAKER_01I think it seems to point towards there's some demonic force because it because it once again it said coming out of the sea, there's something coming out, but there will be a person, there's also an individual on this earth that I believe that will encapsulate this. So if this is a counterfeit Christ, which I told you that's what the Antichrist is, the the Christ, the true Christ, Jesus Christ, was fully God and fully man, and he was uniquely the only one to walk on this earth that way. The beast will be fully man, it will be a person because it's a counterfeit, but he's not fully the devil because once again the devil doesn't have the power of the father. Yeah, but at the same time, he's gonna personify essentially the devil through seemingly demonic forces that will be at work through this individual. So uh so I guess that's the best way to describe it. It'd be a man that's gonna be filled with uh demonic leadership to fulfill the will of the dragon. I guess is a is perhaps one way to explain it.
SPEAKER_02Or maybe empowered by it. Empowered, that might be a good way to put it. Well, and you know, I think uh you're you're you made a statement a minute ago about the way that Rome kind of emblemized all these horrible empires, and a lot a lot of people will look at this and say, well, then didn't it end with Rome? I you know, I find it interesting that throughout history, since the time of Rome's rise, the the level of obsession that there is with Rome, with the Caesars, I I just did a quick listing through this, but considering that the Byzantines that ruled in Turkey for about a thousand years were a direct, said we're still the Roman Empire, uh, then you go on the Ottoman Turks, and you think, oh the Turkish people, they won't, they wouldn't have the the guy um Suleiman called himself the Sultan I Rum, the the Sultan of Rome. He considered himself as the Caesar. The Russians saw themselves also as the as the inheritors of the Roman Empire. The Tsar, when you see that word, is a direct change of the word Caesar. You keep going, the Holy Roman Empire, World War I Germany, which called their their leader the Kaiser. Well, there's Caesar again, World War II Germany, keeping it keeping it running, old Adolf. Guess what he called? He called his version of Germany the Third Reich, which was again a reference to the rule of Rome. Then even if you think even, well, those are all super evil people, think about the Catholic Church that the Pope took on his title Pontifex Maximus, which was a direct title of the Roman Caesars. So, I mean, you have this, I mean, again, we made the statement earlier, the devil doesn't play any new games, but man, I mean, you see throughout history again and again the shadows of what is to come based off this idea of worldwide empire, of absolute domination, and also another another thing, and we're gonna talk about this here in a second, about the role of perfectionism of humanity as a as having a role in what's happening here. Um and so I don't I don't think honestly, when we when we look at well, the Roman Empire fell however many thousand hundreds of years ago, thousands of years ago now, um even even then mankind still goes back to it. We still we cannot get away from the from the the flavor, I guess like a better term, of what Rome was. And in our hearts, when we look at what attempts us to walk away from God, it looks an awful lot like what Rome was and did. Um even to to for us to counterfeit it again and again and make it worse and worse each time.
SPEAKER_01And I think the fascination with Rome is is purposeful. I mean, if we talked about this earlier too, that everybody has a fascination with just uh with just in times, with just Armageddon, the concept of that of apocalyptic literature and film and culture. Like there's a fascination to that. We talked about that weeks ago, how I would argue it's because all of us in this world have those existential questions of just how did I get here and what's gonna happen with this world and what's going on, where is all this heading? And so God already put that bent in our hearts, I believe, for us to ask those questions to find the right answer in Jesus Christ and in his word. But we're all asking those questions and it leads to the wrong conclusions. And likewise, I think you're right, Matt. I think there's that just kind of feeling in a lot of people's minds of, well, Rome was a big deal, still is a big deal in my mind for some reason. I can't figure out why. And it just seems like there's going to be this big government one day, and the government just keeps getting bigger, not smaller, and maybe this could all go somewhere bad. And it's like, yeah, you know why you think that? It's because you're made in God's image, and this is exactly what God's word says. If you just open your eyes to the actual truth of what God's word has already told you. So I just think it's interesting though, because what what we do though is we look at that and we don't ever get to the solution. We just love studying the problem of like, oh yeah, the Roman Empire and bad guys, let's keep looking more and more and more. And it's like, well, or you could realize this is where this is heading, yeah, and and look to the answer.
SPEAKER_02Well, and if you want even a more modern equivalent fact thing, back in September of 2023, Forbes wrote an article about how often the average man thinks about the Roman Empire. Do you remember you remember this? I don't know if I remember seeing that. I remember this. Oh, it's it's hilarious. I mean, it's like every day. Really? The average man's world will think about, and even I think it said here a second ago, uh Billy Ray Billy Ray Cyrus thinks about it 15 to 20 times a day. That's hilarious. But I mean, and that seems that's stupid, right? I mean, like, oh who but but there's something to that. Like there, there's and you know, when I really think about what it is, it is that when we think about what Rome is, it's the build, it's the building up of something grand and powerful and domineering. Yes. And what's what's interesting is it looks an awful lot like what God called us to do as human beings in our father Adam, and yet the direction is wrong. Exactly right. That ultimately, who sits on the throne in that scenario? In the Roman scenario, as we're thinking about it, and as you've seen every single one of these actions of empire, there's always an individual that sits on that throne that directs it all toward himself. Each of us, when we set up our own little Roman empires in our world, set ourselves up on the throne. But ultimately, just like everything else about who Satan is, is this counterfeit kind of thing, the very same thing is is there in the role of the Antichrist and the way that the Roman Empire comes up again and again and again. Because it's not about Italy, it's about the spirit of it. And you know, we even talked about you even talk about when in Daniel there's that uh the passage where it talks about the prince of Persia. There there's something to this about these spirits behind empires. Right. That is a little bit more than just the just the brass tacks of territories.
SPEAKER_01There is something spiritual in it. Well, and you see that all throughout the Old Testament. That's a good example of Daniel chapter 10 when Michael's fighting that battle. But then also, if you just think about all these empires that one, it was prophesied about each step of the along the way in the Old Testament of the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians, uh the Greeks, the Romans, every stage was prophesied about beforehand that these things were would come. But also you see then how God sovereignly works it his will out in that. And it makes you wonder, like you said, the spiritual battle that must be at work behind the battle, the scene physically, of God's will as being fulfilled, and Satan doesn't want it to be fulfilled. And that's what you saw in that Daniel 10 uh chapter was that was Satan was trying to thwart God's purposes for a for a earthly kingdom to be used for the sake of God's kingdom and his will, and the devil didn't want it. But but it gives you a new perspective to warfare that we have on this earth because that is a wild thought of the spiritual forces that are at work behind the scenes leading towards things, destructive things or good things for that matter that are going to help advance the kingdom of God.
SPEAKER_02And you know, I I think that this helps us in our conversation when we talk about you know naming names and stuff like that. We we always want to point to this thing's the Antichrist, that that that guy's the Antichrist, this politician is. We have enough of them. We I mean it's been named throughout history enough times. I mean, we've even in the conversation we just had, we just walked through eight or nine different times where we've seen a shadow of what it what it was. And I think what that calls us to do is to look less for the individual that emblemizes that, but the spirit that is that.
SPEAKER_01Can I also just add this? Sorry, I'm gonna be to cut you off, but I just think it's funny because so many people want to name names, like you said, for the Antichrist. But at least in our circles, I mean we're we're coming from obviously a conservative evangelical perspective. The majority of conservative evangelicals out there are in the same tribe I'm in of a pre-tribulational premillennialist, meaning you believe in a rapture before the tribulation. Yeah, so people that actually believe they're not gonna be there when the antichrist shows up spend all their time talking about who's the antichrist right now. And it's like, well, actually, in your own theology, you don't think you're gonna be there when he shows up. So why are you even worried about it so much in that sense?
SPEAKER_02And even you know, continuing the irony train there, you know, we talked we we talked about this off air a while back, but um in the sermon you made that that statement about the about we talk about where the temple comes from, right? And like and then who built it, and then ultimately it has to be have been built by the Antichrist. But why is it that so many evangelical groups are trying to band together to pay to rebuild the temple? I mean, it's it's a it's like, what are you are are you are you reading it? Like there's something something weird happening with this. Um and so I mean not to get too far off in the weeds there, but we then get into the next person in this this unholy trinity here, uh, as the second beast comes in. Um and you this one's a little bit different in that it's subservient to the other two. Um but this is the one that you would that you would term in as term as the false prophet, right? The one, the one so and by and and friends, as you're hearing this term false prophet, you need to understand that it's this is not somebody who's going and telling fortunes or something like that. A prophet is somebody who claims to speak the very words of God. And so if there's somebody whose teaching you don't like, and you say they're not a good, they're not, they're boring or their or their political opinion is different than yours, they're probably not a false prophet unless they are claiming these are the words of God. All right. So it's a lot higher bar than we want to place it. But you know, with that, Jonathan, why do we think this is the false prophet here in the second half of uh chapter 13?
SPEAKER_01Well, everything that this uh second beast does is to point towards the first beast. And so that that happens over and over. Uh it's to point people to worship uh the first beast, to worship the antichrist. Uh, there's signs and wonders done to show the power of the antichrist. There's a mark that's put on followers to show their followership of the antichrist. And all those are things that a false prophet's doing. They're trying to point towards ultimately the Antichrist as the object of worship and followership, which in a similar way, I talked about this on Sunday. The the Holy Spirit does that in a holy way towards Jesus Christ, that uh he points people to worship Christ and he compels us to obey and come and follow his commandments. Uh the false prophet does the same. He forces and compels people to follow the commandments of the beast. Uh, the Holy Spirit uses supernatural works to really point towards the glory and majesty of Christ and show the validity of Christ, uh, where you see this false prophet do miraculous supernatural things to try to point towards the glory and the power of the beast. Um, but I think the biggest thing is that mark also that that's where the counterfeit thing's done, is that the false prophet operating as a false Holy Spirit, he marks people to show that they belong to the beast.
SPEAKER_02And what is that counterfeit that's already happened of something that's already happened here in Revelation?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. In Revelation 7, you see God do the same thing where the 144,000 are sealed. But and even in a lesser way, in a foreshadowing way, we are also sealed, Ephesians 1, through the Holy Spirit, that I'm marked right now in my heart. I'm marked spiritually, internally, by God and for God, that I belong to Him. And so you what you see is this now is some form of it looks like an outward mark that's showing outward allegiance uh to the Antichrist. So it's all just a big ripoff and it's a big counterfeit of what the Holy Spirit does for us.
SPEAKER_02And I I distinctly remember a time when I was told that the mark of the beast was the euro. Oh wow. Exactly right. People have got that one currency and all that. Um and so I mean that does give give us a an I guess an important conversation here because this is usually where the rubber starts to hit the road and the way that people act is there is they're looking for what is that mark of the beast and how can I avoid getting it, right? Um one of the one of them one of the ones that's the newest, which I guess is not really new because this has been in sci-fi for quite some time, but is what Elon Musk is doing with Neurolink and with implantable brain like uh computer chips and stuff like that. And so, I mean, is that do we do we think that that is this mark of the beast particularly? Uh I mean, what what do you think about that, Jonathan?
SPEAKER_01I think everybody's got to be be wise. It says be wise. That's actually what we're directed to do right there in the text. Um, I think we gotta be wise not to jump to conclusions. Uh I think it can get a little bit crazy just to everything that we see is wild. We always think, well, that has to be the mark of the Antichrist. Yeah um also people thought social security numbers were. I mean, people have thought uh currency was, people have thought computers, chips, cell phones, vaccinations. I mean, you could go down the list, all of these things. I think the bigger thing is just to see the reality of. I think when you read the text and you see, okay, there's gonna be some kind of public, there's some kind of identification. We see that, that that that shows followership belonging, uh, and being a subordinate to some higher authority. Are there things out there that perhaps today maybe are already smaller signs of that that are pointing towards that could become a reality? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like, I mean I just thought about the like back in the day, blockbuster card, remember the beast. I was one of those kids that was not allowed to go to Blockbuster. So I, you know, I was I was the redeemed, okay.
SPEAKER_01I think with like I think we need to be cautious with stuff like you're talking about with Elon and other things, but I think we also have to be careful. Um, I think the bigger picture is for us to see in culture how this is believable. And I talked about that at length on Sunday in the at the close, because I think for me, that that is what you should take away from culture, is seeing stuff like we're talking about as okay, well, yeah, those those ideas show me how this could be possible. Doesn't mean these are the things, but they could show me that it's possible. Uh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Well, and there is probably also a idea of um that's gonna sound really gross, but satanic grooming. Yeah where we're where we're made normalized, where we're made more and more comfortable with the with the idea of it. Um but to that idea of believableness, you know, you there is this interesting part where when we're considering what particularly the mode of persecution that these people are facing is at this point, I mean it gets a lot worse later, but um that the persecution is of buying and selling. Um and that and that kind of strikes that as I was thinking about that, it kind of strikes me of the weird chord that you know, why is it that particularly? Why why isn't it that they were not able to go to sporting events or they were not that as as my as my kids would say, taking away their our screen time. Yeah. Oh wow, yeah. So I mean, why do you think, Jonathan, that it that it's this, this that the particular mode of persecution is buying and selling as opposed to anything else?
SPEAKER_01Because if you're pushed out of that at that time, you are dead. I mean, uh it contextually, because once again, you have to look at this. This isn't like a new thing that's happening in the in the chronology. This has happened earlier in our story. Like we've been talking about the Great Tribulation, I believe already would have happened chronologically, way farther back in Revelation. So that means during this time as this is happening, you've also had um most likely the trumpets, you know, for sure the seals open, most likely the trumpets, or at least most of them, and you have death. I mean, you have death everywhere. You have scarcity of resources, you have water that's been poisoned and turned to blood, you've had warfare, you've had cosmic disturbances, you've had asteroids hitting the earth, supply chains disrupted. Like there's there's not already not resources. Like it's already a desperate time. And if suddenly you can't get to the little bit of stuff there is, well, then you're done. I mean, it's it's suffering at its worst. Um, and so I think that's why is it's a it's a pretty desperate picture. You might say, why not just kill them? I almost look at that, well, these people probably wish they were dead. In fact, I forget which one of the trumpets it is. I think it was in trumpet number five, uh, where the demons start to be unleashed on the earth during that time of great tribulation. It says they want to die, but they cannot. And so perhaps you see a picture of that right here once again. These people are saying, I'd rather be dead because I can't, I can't find what I need right now.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I don't know if there's a real connection here because I thought about it while we were on the podcast. And it's always, friends, it's always dangerous to try to present a new idea when you're on the podcast. But uh it makes me think a little bit about if if the ultimate persecution at this point is not being able to buy or sell, and that speaks to the role of our role of how we interact with our money, with the things that we have, the possessions that we have. I guess a question that comes to my mind is if we were if we as humanity were stopped being able to give toward the church or give toward Christian things and give toward Christ, would it change our lives at all? Um kind of like I guess is the opposite, the opposite of what we're seeing here. That you know, the the role of what you buy and sell, the way that you're able to utilize the things that you have is so much more telling about your heart than you than you really want to admit. Um and to me, I that that's kind of a a an application of truth that kind of pokes through right there of you know, your pocketbook matters and what your what you spend on matters. Because at this point, it's gonna be you're not gonna have a choice anymore. It's and you know, it's gonna get pretty desperate.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I'll also add to it, I think the emotional side of it, there's the practical part, they're not getting the resources they need, but there's the emotional part of being cut off by the world. And and I mean, most recently, obviously we had a pandemic a few years ago. And you think about that when people were pushed out, uh, that they were not allowed in marketplaces, they were not allowed to buy or sell. There were restaurants and and businesses, the military itself, that said if you did not, quote, take this mark to use that same metaphor of whether you want to look at it as a mask or an injection, that if you don't do these things, you will be cut off. You cannot buy or sell here, you cannot participate in business here. And the impact that made on people, not only just financially and on a practical level, but I remember we all do the emotional distress people went through that they could not participate in the world anymore. They could not travel places, they couldn't shop at places, they couldn't go to restaurants, they couldn't.
SPEAKER_02Well, if you if you had a kid in the pandemic, they couldn't go to school, they couldn't go to school, exactly. That messed up a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01The isolationism of because you will not comply and do this, you are not allowed to participate in the world. That has such a devastating emotional impact on people. And I think you see that here too with the mark, which once again I talked about this on Sunday. That when I bring up the pandemic, I don't want to use that as a as me saying that I think that was the mark of the beast. I don't. But at the same time, I think if you don't think this is possible, you've just you've lost it in the last three years because at that time when authority, large government, told the world, do this or you will be penalized. And if you did not, you were pushed out. Um, that is pretty much what we see happening in Revelation 13 that will come on a much greater scale.
SPEAKER_02Well, and that gets us to uh another kind of the the last piece of this um this section, which I know we've gone long today because there's a lot of stuff to talk about, but you do have then the the wisdom of the one who can understand it. And you made that statement in the sermon, which you know, I honestly had never I'd never read a commentary that made mention of that, but the idea of the 666, the number which if you're if you grew up in a Christian household, anytime you you saw something that was six dollars and sixty-six cents at the store, you're like, oh no, it's the mark of the beast. Yeah, I can't buy the thing. Um, you know, superstition. I'm not I'm not superstitious, but I am a little stitchious. But you know, you made this statement that that 666 is like the is realistically like the height of what humanity can accomplish. Yep. Um, and it's it's that it's that reflects that symbol of the sixth day of creation, as much as we could possibly do without you know relying on God. And as you were talking about that, and even as you were talking a second ago about the the COVID experience, things like that, it it speaks to that same concept. Um, when you think about really what happened in COVID, there was the reaction of the world of okay, it's dangerous. And that that's fair enough. That people were trying to save lives and trying to trying to keep people from getting sick. Where it turned was toward utopianism. Everybody has to get along, right? Nobody can ever be sick. Um life life can be completely compartmentalized and isolated so that you don't have to feel pain or suffer. Yeah. Um and again, kind of going into my, you know, nerd history side of things, when we look in history at all of the greatest abominations that have ever been committed by humanity, it is always connected to radical utopianism of a belief of by either the religious things that I can do to make myself a better person or of expanding our humanity to an extent to where we don't think we can ever die. Um it always results in evil. And I even did a list of this. I mean, you consider medieval cults and the crusades led to the pogroms, the the person the bat the mass persecution of the Jews, you into the you know, there's a funny, there's a one of the crusades, it's interesting, they actually wound up attacking Constantinople, which was a Christian city. So I mean it kind of weird, but keep it moving. You have in the Enlightenment, you had the growth of atheism out of that. The French Revolution, you had the guillotine, 1900s perfectionism. Here's a fun fact where where did the eugenics movement that Hitler so took on, where did it start? It started in the United States of America. There there is film from the early 1900s that talks about eugenics and about uh Margaret Sanger herself. Woodrow Wilson. Yeah, I mean it yeah, yeah. I won't go there. Uh you keep you keep moving. Even and so, Jonathan, you made that statement about big government. Think about the USSR and the and what the Soviet Union did in killing, I think it was eight million of its own followers over time in the purges. Might have been 10 million, I can't remember. Um, Chinese con communism happening today, the Xinjiang uh re-education camps where there are over a million Chinese citizens that have been forced into slavery for re-education. Yeah. I mean, you and then if you think it's too far from us, you think about what the role of radical capitalism and its connection to human trafficking, that the amount of us trying to get and get and get has led to the rise of pornography on a mass scale, on a viral scale, to the extent that there are young women across the world that are being abducted and placed into sexual slavery in the world in which we live right now. And then, even on top of that, you want to if we want to look at American history, you look at Manifest Destiny and how it led to the annihilation of Indian tribes. I mean, it would be laughable if it wasn't the same thing happening over and over and always. The more that we get disconnected from our humanity, from our from our sin, and believe and buy full scale that we as humans can become perfect, that we can become our own God, that we can become our own Caesar, the more we are gonna be the ones that perpetrate the abominations ourselves because it is not sustainable. We are not God. And as a result, this number 666 is not that far from any of us. No, and I think that's kind of the big point that I that I that I was leading up to there, that we we look at the these things like the Antichrist and the the false prophet and the the mark of the beast and all these things and think, oh, that's so far from anything I would do. It's like, man, your grandfather did like I mean it it it's it it should be a humbling thing for us.
SPEAKER_01I would agree. I think it's offering because he's offering a false salvation to go back once again to counterfeit ideas. Like you're you use that word utopianism, and I think that's an appropriate word. But what the the dragon, the beast, the false prophet are offering is a counterfeit salvation. Follow us and we will take care of you. We will get this done for you. Uh, we are the solution, we are your salvation, uh, which obviously is going to lead to death. Um and I would agree to this day, there are all kinds of salvation movements that happen all around our country of uh follow this science and and this will lead to your salvation. You know, follow this initiative, this policy, it'll save the earth. Uh, you know, follow this leader, we'll we'll solve world hunger. You know, that you're right, that stuff still exists. And I think the biggest key to take away from all of this is the reaction to it, because that kind of culture, like you said, has always existed, still does. The question is, what do we do as a Christian with that? One of the best things you can do is ask questions, like and not not just fall into alignment with just compliance. I think we live in a world that that is a cancel culture, and everyone's so fearful to actually ask the obvious question. Like, like, and if because you're afraid, if you ask the question, you will be pushed out of the market, just like you see in Revelation 13. And so I think that's the the encouragement for us to take from this is we are not living in that Revelation 13 picture, but we are living in a foreshadowing of it. And what can we do as light? Push back against darkness. And when the nonsense says that this is what you have to do and do this or else, you can ask a question and say, Well, maybe we shouldn't do that. Why? And and at the end of the day, we can ask that question. And if what they're we're being told to do is is going against God's word, we can also be biblically defiant like Daniel and take a stand in the right way when we're called to do wrong.
SPEAKER_02And and I think that gives us a great place to close today because uh and I want to rewind this a little bit back into chapter 12, because we we're talking about these giant spiritual terms, and we're talking about our role in standing up against the flow of the way humanity tends to go. And you as a listener might be saying, Man, I don't know how I'm gonna how I'm gonna fight back against this stuff. I mean, we talk about we'll just have faith or you know, things like that. I mean, that's you know, uh hobby law, a hobby lobby sign is not gonna get you through getting uh getting pushed out of the marketplace. But, you know, because God God in his grace in this revelation showing John all of these things that are so horrible, in right smack dab in the middle of chapter 12 says this. And I heard it says, I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And here here's the crux. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. And so when we when we look at this, when you as a listener are considering your where you are in history and what and what's happening around you, and the the seeming crushing flow of history, what are you leaning on? Like what what is what is your real weapon in this? Uh what God would say is it's been done through the blood of the Lamb already. Fight back in his strength, rely on him. Again, we've talked about this before, but most of the way that God exhibits his power is by the word of uh by the word of his will. And so that you Christian are empowered with what the scripture says, but what the word of God says to change the world. We're not left powerless in this, and we're not left weaponless in this. Um and as the scripture says, we are more than conquerors through him uh who's who saved us. And so um Jonathan, what do you what I mean, what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_01He he says also, I think it's in the at the middle of the thirteenth chapter, John says, here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. And so to that same tone that you're saying, the calling in all of this is to endure, which which I love in that text and the verses before it, there's not only a call for endurance, but also proof that you can endure to your point, that it's possible, because it says in verse 8 of chapter 13, and all who dwell on the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of of of life of the Lamb who was slain. And then he says, if anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone's to be taken captive to captivity he goes, and if anyone's to be slain with the sword, with the sword, he must be slain. But I love that picture because it shows what we talked about choice earlier, that ultimately we have a choice. We have a choice, whom will you follow? And the point is it's a call to persevere. And he says, All of them followed the beast except those whose names were in the book of life. And for them, if the beast said we're taking him to captivity, to captivity they went. If the beast said this one has to be slain, then they were slain, and they had a choice. And so, to that same point, I would just encourage the listener, you have a choice today whom you're gonna follow. Don't ever act like you're the victim, right? And that you have no choice in this world because the enemy is too strong and there's all these forces at play, and now you just have to fall in line with the rest of the world. Paul says, Don't be conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. And you are not a victim. If you're in Christ, you're a victor. And whatever lot comes your way, like you said, Jesus Christ will give you the strength to sustain it and endure it. So it's a call for endurance for the faith of the saints.
SPEAKER_03You'll prepare and equip the saints for what's to come.
SPEAKER_02Well, friends, thank you for enduring with us through this hour-long podcast today. You know, we hope that as you've been listening to this, as we've been walking through all these symbols, all of the um the spiritual realities that that are now and are and are to come, we hope that you're encouraged by it. Um, you know, they had to take that take that word knowledge is power, right? And so even if you worry about these kinds of things, know that as Pastor Jonathan said, you know, your name, if your name's in the book of life, you know, this is just the end of the war that we're that we're seeing. And so uh as always, if you have any questions, uh, because the Lord knows we did not cover everything in these these chapters, we hope that you would reach out through uh info at AustinBaptistchurch.com or through direct message at Austin Baptist Church on Instagram. But for Pastor Jonathan, for Steven, we thank you for joining us today on the Civilizate C Civilization, the Citizen ATX podcast. And we hope you will join us next time as we continue in the Revelation Director's Cut series. Take care.