Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Revelation_Directors Cut: Ask Me Anything (Your Questions Answered)
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In this episode, we take the time to read and answer YOUR questions. Revelation is a complicated book, and there are a lot of concepts left open for interpretation. While we can't find all of the answers, the one thing we can be sure of is that "Our Hope Is on the Throne". Join Matt, Jonathan, and Stephen as they unpack these questions from fellow listeners.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillum, and we are glad that you are joining us as we are picking back up the Revelation Director's Cut series. And we've missed you so over the last two weeks as we've been preparing for Easter and all the great things happening here at Austin Baptist Church. But coming into Easter moving through, we're going to be continuing in the book of Revelation. But this week we're in a little bit of an interlude of sorts as uh as we've been paused in our sermon series, but we wanted to take this time to give a little bit of audience feedback, I suppose. Uh feedback and an audio thing is not normally a good thing, but in this case it's great. But here in the studio with me, I have Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Howdy, Matthew. And also Stephen Vaughn. Hello, Stephen. Hello. And so what we did this week is over the past couple of weeks, we have solicited questions from the from you as the listener about things that have bothered you in the book of Revelation. And we've got a good list of probably eight or so, maybe ten questions here that we're gonna rock through today. Um, and we want to make we just want to make sure that as we're doing this podcast, that this is a give and take, that you understand this as a conversation, something that you get to be a part of. And we do hope it's something that you are able to participate in this conversation with us as we're trying to learn. So, Stephen, Jonathan, you ready to jump into it? Let's do it. Sure. All right. Okay, so first one. We're gonna go with the easiest one first. How about that? So the first one, could you please explain pre-mid post trib rapture series series? Listener, I'm being sarcastic. I should have uh so the and the verses which each use for support and why you believe the way you do, and why you don't believe the others are as solid. So essentially, uh the person who's asking this question is asking for us to define a little bit what do we mean by pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation with regard to the rapture, and then why do we believe that way? And so I'm happy to let you guys jump off on this because I don't know me and Stephen actually both agree on this that our first answer is, well, I don't know. Or I can't, but no, uh John, do you want to jump off on the Sure, and I will answer the question.
SPEAKER_00I'll preface it by saying for this question and all questions, we're gonna try to give a concise, clear answer on some of these things. I I do want to let you know we welcome these questions and we want to answer these questions, but a lot of these questions have been debated on, and you could read entire books on. I mean, there's so much that could go into it. So, particularly the rapture, that is a big contentious topic. So by rapture, we mean being caught up with Christ in the clouds. And so the debate then that's always been had uh is when Christ returns. Obviously, it's clear in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 and and even in 1 Corinthians 15 that that the dead in Christ will rise. There'll be this catching up in the air with the Lord and then descending upon the earth with the Lord to establish this kingdom here on this earth. The question is when does that happen? So the pre-tribulational rapture position contends that that happens before what's known as the seven-year tribulation that we've been talking about. And Christ will come and take those that are on this earth with him there to heaven to stay for the during the duration of that tribulation, then come with him afterwards uh to establish the kingdom here on this earth. The mid-tribulational position, just so we all understand, means it happens in the middle of that seven-year tribulation period, and I'll get into that in a moment. And then a post-tribulational view uh holds to essentially that there is not a rapture as we defined it, but as instead it's just a one-time thing where Christ comes, they're taken in that moment, caught up and immediately descending upon the earth after this all happens after the seven-year duration.
SPEAKER_03And I'll note that for the post-tribulation, a lot of times people view that kind of like a victory parade of a conquering hero coming in and people running out of the city to come in with them on the procession. So that's kind of uh the picture that's happening there.
SPEAKER_00And so biblical support then, now that I've kind of explained what are those three views, kind of a basic biblical analysis of what what why on each of these teams. And I will also tell you there's godly people that believe in all three teams. You can be a part of any of these teams based on your own prayer and study and discernment. Uh, all these things have biblical backing and reasons for them. So, on the pre-tribulational perspective, I already told everyone as I preach this book, this is the opinion of which I would adhere to. This is the perspective that I would align with. Uh, I will tell you this this teaching did not pick up much steam until the 19th century. So it's been a bigger, uh, more recent teaching, I guess, to emerge to the forefront. But biblical support for this, I went through these things quickly uh in the sermon. I'll kind of go through them quickly here. Um, one of the biggest reasons why I believe in the pre-tribulational rapture is there's no mention of the church in Revelation chapter 6 to 18 during the tribulation. Uh Ecclesia, the church is the at the forefront, talked about 19 times in Revelation 1 through 3. Then they suddenly go missing the rest of the book. Uh, but then once again they appear, Revelation 19 in the marriage supper of the Lamb. So there's this, where'd they go? And then suddenly the church is coming there with Christ in Revelation 19 after the marriage supper. Additionally, Jesus says in John chapter 14, verse 3, that he's going to come and take us to his father's house. Uh, I would believe that that means the father's house as it stands today. He says, Where I'm going, you may be also. So that would only happen for all of the saints if on this earth we were taken up to heaven as it exists, because otherwise heaven's coming down, his house is coming to us. Uh and those that were on this earth would miss that experience, if you will, of being up there in heaven as it exists today.
SPEAKER_03Now, particularly that verse, one curiosity that comes to my mind is I mean, I mean, I've never really connected that to Jesus talking about the rapture, more so just saying in general, like what this is the the situation in heaven is uh and I've heard it compared to um the Jewish uh bachelor going uh once once they propose marriage to to the bride, then they go back home and they start building on a room onto their father's house to provide for for her. Right. Uh and so that was always the way that it was uh it was presented to me. I and so I uh that that kind of caught that I'm not certain that I would necessarily connect the terrestrial. I can see how people would.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's kind of this is that's a great example, Matt, because that to that point as I present these this case, there are rebuttals, you know, to some of these interpretively. I I do believe that he's speaking of a place and he says, Where I'm going, you may be also. And he says, uh, I will come again and take you myself, is what he says in verse three. So I believe if in those who would adhere to a pre-tribulational perspective would say that Jesus is actually speaking towards the rapture, but what you bring up is a good point, Matt, because as I go through the rest of this list briefly, there's not one verse that's the proof text saying, Here's where Jesus says the word rapture, and explains that this is where it happens. Much of the rapture argument biblically is taking a lot of ideas all throughout scripture of allusions to what seems to be this idea of this pre-tribulational rapture, but there's not one clear proof text. Uh, if there was one, I would point to Revelation chapter three, verse ten. That's always been one of the biggest ones. When people say, Where is the where is the pre-tribulational rapture in the book of Revelation? I would argue it's chapter uh three, verse 10. Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep from you the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, is what Jesus said to those who dwell on the earth. So he makes a promise to the church to take them and keep them, and there's a lot more you can read on that, on the interpretation. Likewise, Jesus in Matthew chapter 24 compares his coming to Noah's flood. And if you think about Noah's flood, during the flood, Noah and the righteous, his family, they were saved from that wrath that they were put in this ark and they were not swept away by the storm that came to this earth. And so, likewise, there's seemingly a parallel to the wrath and the storm that's yet to come in the future. Um, first Thessalonians chapter 5, verse 9, God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. So I also believe since Jesus Christ already absorbed the full wrath of God on my behalf, I believe therefore all of us saints here on this earth, we will not receive that wrath because Christ already received it for us. So if we're on this earth, it seemingly doesn't make sense. That's that's what a pre-tribulational position would hold. But then lastly, and then I'll move on to mid, the doctrine of eminence plays a big role in this because Jesus constantly preaches that you've got to be ready. Yeah, and he says he could come at any moment. He says it's like a thief in a night, like a woman giving birth. It's could happen any moment, any time. And so the the pre-tribulational rapture gives quite the explanation to that because ultimately, if it could happen anytime, he gives all these signs that have to happen. And you could argue, well, how could it happen anytime if these signs haven't actually happened? That means it's not going to happen right now, but Jesus says, no, it could happen right now. So that would make a lot of sense that yes, what he means by that is the rapture could happen at any moment he could take us. Then obviously, all these signs of the tribulation, these things come to follow. A mid-tribulational position position, I'll talk about that briefly. So that's pre-tribulational. Mid-tribulational rapture contends essentially that when things get really dark, when the wrath of God comes down in the latter half during this great tribulation, there would be a rapture that would save not the church from the tribulation that comes on this earth, but from that great tribulation, from the rapture, or excuse me, from the wrath that will come in the second half. There's a couple different things to look at with that. Um, some people hold an interpretation. I don't want to necessarily get into the weeds too much here, but I I preached about there's this scroll, you remember that becomes the focal point in Revelation chapter four and five. Five, the Lamb takes the scroll, he opens it, and those seals start getting removed. Then there's another scroll that shows up at the forefront in Revelation chapter 10. Now, when I preach the text, I talk about how I believe it's the same scroll. Some people see those as two different scrolls, uh, where the first scroll would have been those first seven seals, but then that little scroll is essentially Revelation 10 to 22 of all the other stuff that's to come of the of the greater judgments, the trumpets and the wrath. And so that is some biblical support where some people would view, well, this is two different chapters. There's the little scroll coming. And then a big turning point where a lot of people say, well, where's the mid-tribulational rapture in the text? Some point to Revelation chapter 14. And in Revelation chapter 14, I preached on this. There's two different waves of what I believe is judgment. There's a uh harvest judgment and then a grape uh wine, uh grapes, uh, excuse me, grapes harvest. And so both of those harvests, the the grain and the grapes, I see them as two different waves of judgment. Some people see that first one, the grain judgment, as God going to the parable, the wheat and the tares, of Jesus, Jesus taking his church in that grain harvest, removing them, because chapter 14 is a big point where it comes right before the bowls of wrath, before they're poured out. So some contend that that is a mid-tribulational perspective, that Jesus comes and takes his church before, not before the the tribulation begins, but before his bowls of wrath, the the worst of the worst, is poured out on this earth. So that's mid-trib.
SPEAKER_03And I will say that I I that I personally tend to move toward mid-tribulation, um, partly for the reasons that you you've mentioned, but also for um, I guess kind of partly from a philosophical place, which, you know, listener, granted, we can't really take uh uh strong scriptural stance based on philosophy, but you know, you can take maybe hunches sometimes. But the idea that often that oftentimes in scripture we talk God talks about the result of what suffering does in the life of believers and that and how often the suffering of believers brings others to himself. And so it would make sense to me based off of some of these things that have been talked about, as well as just kind of the um uh the choppiness of the timeline here. I mean, we've talked about this at a a lot on the podcast about all these interludes that come in. It becomes kind of difficult for me at least to see the linear going through this and differentiating between the uh the figurative language versus the literal language that that happens in different places. Um I would also say, like even particularly the scroll, one thing that I would see as being different is the fact that the first one's not called a little scroll, it's just called the scroll, and then one it then the second one receives the modifier, and it's also in an interlude.
SPEAKER_00Well, and and to be on the rebuttal of that, some people then on the other side say it's called a little roll little scroll because it's in a mighty hand, because it's talking about how big the angel is. So there it goes back to that same point as you gave, you know, the counter before. It's like every one of these, if you study it like long enough, there's a counter, you know, to these things. Uh, and that's why we have to give grace and be open-handed on this, that there is uh a little bit of debate on some of these interpretive issues, but that's mid-trib.
SPEAKER_03And so I I think um well, no, you can go in and uh talk about post-trib. Okay, so post-trib.
SPEAKER_00So post-trib, so the last one, and I'll be brief on this one, is basically I told you earlier, it means uh those that hold to this perspective don't believe that there's any form of a rapture per se before Christ's coming, that it all happens at once, that we're caught up with him as he's descending, and then we come with him here to this earth after the seven-year tribulation. The best evidence for that has been largely, uh, I would argue, philosophical and a straightforward uh uh with a straightforward reading of scripture. Right. Because I I we already talked about it for the mid-trib and the pre-trib. There's some interpretive issues, there's some things you got to work through of looking through the entirety of scripture to see what I believe is a uh theme that's going on there. Uh and so some people would say, well, that's too compla complicated. We'll just read it for what it says. And some people that hold a pr uh post-tribulational perspective believe that all other viewpoints basically talk about two comings of Christ, which they would argue, you know, is not a biblical idea. Right. Uh, and so that's their biggest reason why they would adhere to that position. I will say that the downside of that position, Romans 5, 9, says, Since therefore we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved from the wrath of God. And so a post-tribulational rapture, I believe, doesn't give a clear enough explanation. This is my my opinion on this, yeah, to reconcile a verse like that. Because at that point, they're not spared from the wrath, they endured the wrath at that point.
SPEAKER_03Well, and it makes and it makes sense too, just from the perspective of what wrath is. Wrath is not discipline, it's destruction. And um, you know, the there is no there's no part of scripture that says that God um delight uh I mean, it actually is the opposite, God does not delight in crushing the water. And so realistically, what's happening in Revelation is not something that would have been given to believers, not to mention the fact that you have the hundred and forty-four thousand that are sealed and all that kind of stuff. Right. And so there is a there is a very, very um there are and there are a lot of things to that that are difficult to understand. I will say one inter I think one of the things that leads us to this place, um, I I have an example in mind. And so uh Jonathan and Stephen, if if I were to describe to you an animal that has armor, has a pig nose, has claws, can jump real high, and only comes out at night, and it can also give you rabies, in your mind's eye, you you as a listener may be thinking, oh, this is a huge, nasty monster thing, right? Stephen, what am I talking about?
SPEAKER_02It's an armadillo.
SPEAKER_03It's an armadillo. Yeah, it's a little common rodent that lives around in our pastures. And so I think sometimes when we look at scripture, we're given a lot of very weird characteristics of things that we might not necessarily always put together, but there is still a truthful, a truthful, an absolute truth behind it. And so that's why I think that we do have so much, so much leeway to suppose on these things, because we see aspects of all these different things re uh revolved in there. But where we what we do what we can see for certain there is a rapture, Jesus is coming back, and that there is a tribulation that's in it. And so for you listener, if you're hearing all this and thinking, oh man, I if I if I I I tend to think toward this post-tribulational thing, is that make me a bad person or sinful? Not really. I think I think more so the challenge is, well, just start thinking through the different the different aspects that you know about what what's said in the rapture, and then you know, be prepared to defend it. I mean, that I think that that's that there's nothing wrong with that. And and in fact, in in the Christian faith and in the church, good, thoughtful conversation and hard questions are are welcome.
SPEAKER_00And I think it's worth noting that there are people that are way smarter than any of us that are talking in these microphones. Well, not Stephen. Stephen's a smarter guy. But but they've adhered to all three positions. Like there are people that are way smarter and are incredibly godly and faithful to God's word. So to your point, I think we we just need to each of us individually study God's word, come to our conviction, and for the rest of us, give grace on on these secondary issues.
SPEAKER_03And to be clear, I just uh what the thing I just said on there, I want you to know that I think Stephen is the smartest in the room. So he's over there grading our papers as we're doing this. And so anyway. All right, let's let's hit on the second question here then that comes in, and y'all have to bear with this because it it's it has a lot of foundation behind it. So um I'm gonna start reading this and then we'll take a crack at it. Uh Revelation 6, 9 through 11, talks about slain souls, martyrs in pr in uh in parentheses, under the altar pleading for judgment. They are told to rest a while longer, appearing to be in anguish. Now that's an that's uh one statement that we might need to come circle back on in there, so think about that. Um then Revelation 7 talks about the hundred and forty-four thousand sealed Jews of all tribes except Dan, coming out of the great tribulation, and are before the throne of God, serving him day and night, and he shall spread his tabernacle over them, tabernacle being tent, place of worship. These are the uh these are these are those not saved before the rapture appeared. Now here comes the question. Are they getting special treatment over the slain souls, slash martyrs, slash prophets who were faithful during their lifetimes and are stuck in in quotation marks, underneath the altar, instead of before the throne serving God? Or are they all together at this time serving before the throne? All right, so so what do we what do we think here? Um the response to this question.
SPEAKER_00So a couple things um come to mind. The first one, Revelation seven, it's worth noting that is the first interlude. So we've talked a lot about this. It breaks from the chronology. So the chronology is the first six seals, and then chapter seven is a pause uh before the seventh seal is opened, and then the seven uh trumpets come there in chapters eight and nine. So in chapter seven, it shifts from six seal number six, which is the cosmic disturbances, the first wave of that, to put the eyes on the hundred and forty-four thousand. I I've talked about, and there's a lot of people that have different perspectives. I would agree with what that person said in their interpretation of them being sealed uh converted Jews that have become evangelists and preachers during that time, witnesses. But there's two visions in chapter seven. The first one's the hundred and forty-four thousand, uh, where they are being identified and explained who they are. It's kind of a meanwhile, this is gonna happen all during this tribulation period. And then there's a glimpse in heaven where you see, we're told, multitudes and multitudes, and all these people and the elders are even like, hey, who are these new people coming there? And then they're saying it's the ones that are coming out from the tribulation, those who had been martyred, uh, all this stuff. And so the question I think he's trying to ask is basically, if I understood it correctly, is he or she, the hundred and forty-four thousand, are they getting special treatment? Is that is that the heart of the question? Yeah, that's the that's it, that's it boiled down. So so at the boiled down level, God has set them apart. I wouldn't call it special treatment, uh, but are they being ordained into a ministry, into an office and a position, essentially, uh, to serve God's purposes during that time? Yes, uh, they are being set apart for his purposes. Now, why does he choose the hundred and forty-four thousand versus some of the other ones? I don't know. You know, I don't know. Why did he choose me to be a preacher and and ordain me to go into ministry versus some other Christian that's right down the road? I don't know. Um, and so God, I think, does have his sovereign purposes for people, but I think also uh I wouldn't call it special treatment. I think that's an unfair word.
SPEAKER_03And and as I'm as I'm looking at it, uh, one thing I do want to bring up first is that uh the the questioner makes a statement appearing to be in anguish. I don't think that's correct because we're we're looking in heaven here, and um and what it actually even says there in um verse 10 uh when that when they make this statement, O sovereign, Lord, holy, and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth, right? Then they were given each given a white robe robe, and here's the point, and told to rest a little longer. So they're resting. And and the and what their their point there is, is they're not asking an anguish for relief from pain, but actually just calling for calling for vengeance for justice. Yeah, exactly. And so they're they're not in a place of uh because like when when you hear anguish, you think the torture and wrath of hell. Um and the that there might be a presupposition here about purgatory or something like that. That's not what this is. Uh more so it uh whenever it talks about them being under the altar, I think we have to remember the the role of figurative speech here that ultimately the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. And and the the what the what the angel is recognizing here is that the full group of those who would wind up honoring Christ with their death is not complete. Yeah. Um, I think back to uh this past week I I taught at our midweek program about Hebrews 11 and 12, and it talks about the great cloud of witnesses and runs through all of these Old Testament prophets. But the statement that it makes there is that their story is not complete until our story joins it. And I think that's part of what's happening here, is that there is a recognition that what the martyrs and the prophets suffered in this life and won their eternal reward in heaven, is not complete, not now not painful, but not finished until the full story of God's people are brought together.
SPEAKER_00I think it's that's a great point. I think it's also worth pointing out, especially if you adhere to a pre tribulational rapture perspective that I do, all these people were. Talking about the hundred forty-four thousand and these martyrs whose prayers are going up to heaven during that time, they are all people that were quote left behind. Use that word, they're use that cliche term out there. They were the ones that were not saved, and then because the church would have been raptured, and then they're there on earth, and God's grace is abounding, and it's coming down where now people are coming to know Jesus Christ as Lord in light of the crazy things that are happening on that earth. So really you actually see God's grace in all of it, that those that are calling out to the Lord because they are suffering for their faith, they have received that faith, though, by God's grace. And then the hundred and forty-four thousand became servants of the Lord, and then God we're told chose those servants, which I think it came in that order, by the way. It says in the text they were his servants, and then he chose those servants. So I believe they'd already received Christ. But then he said, Y'all get the special job where I'm making you mine, and you're you're gonna have to work for me the rest of this time.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I think it may it may just uh to your point earlier, there is a a nature of roles of things, of when you have this procession of all of them coming back with Christ, it's just the the 144,000 are gonna be the first fruits of that. That I mean, they're them being God's people. And so I think it's just an idea of roles at the end of the day, and that I I I find I find it pretty encouraging. Um, you know, we talk about role uh about what heaven is and the idea of um that the far side cartoon where uh a guy is sitting on a cloud, has a little angel's halo over his head, and then he's a little thought bubble and says, Man, I wish I brought a magazine. I mean, it's like you think about what are we actually gonna be doing, but that we are gonna be serving in roles that are different from one another. That you know, these kind of uh God-given passions and talents and occupations that we do, we're gonna be able to do without the pain of labor that Adam gained for us, and that our work in heaven is gonna be exponentially more and more fulfilling than what we do here on earth.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And also, I think in another episode we talked about the new songs that will come as well. And something we're studying right now in one of my worship classes is that um, you know, the idea of coming up with new music right now is a practice that will still be practiced for eternity. Yeah. I mean, that will always happen. Yeah, absolutely. And so it's really cool to see like different cultures and different musical backgrounds and people's different talents will still be used.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right, so let's keep moving then. Um, the third question Who are the four creatures worshiping God at this time with the multitude and the elders and the angels?
SPEAKER_02I have another question we can add to this as well. Okay, what you got? So, yeah. Okay. So there's this idea of the pit, right? That has all the demons in it, and they're supposedly nastier demons or bigger demons. Does that mean that they're also bigger or more powerful angels as well?
SPEAKER_00There are differing levels of angels in a sense, because we know of an archangel. There's only a couple that get named in the Bible, but but there's clearly some form, I believe. It's Michael. Yes, it's Michael and then Gabriel. So they're they're the ones that get named. So there there is, I think there's purpose behind that, and that you see that there is some form of leadership, if you will, within that. But there's a lot of mystery into that of the angels, of of what their purpose are and what each of their roles are. I think to go to your your question about the four living creatures, these are angelic creatures that that who are they? It connects to Isaiah and to Ezekiel's vision. So what's interesting, and we we don't have time to go through all of it right here of the text, but if you study Isaiah, if you study Ezekiel, Isaiah has what's called Seraphim, Ezekiel has what's called cherubim. And what you see with Revelation, what John sees, is in a sense kind of a combination of the two. When you look at some of the descriptors, they're actually a little bit of pieces that come from these two different sides. Right. So some people have identified these as, you know, seraphim or just kind of give them one of the names. But if you really study the descriptors, it's interesting how there's actually some things that kind of get pulled from both of those uh prophecies, both of those prophets rather. Um, but what you see at the end of the day is these are angelic creatures. You see, there had the appearance of the lion, the ox, the face of the man, the eagle. I taught on that, how there's symbolic purposes, I believe, but behind their appearance, it's reflecting the glory of God and specifically the glory of Jesus Christ. Uh, but that's what they do. I mean, they're they're there to glorify the Lord. We're told they never stop singing. And you see that picture from Ezekiel, from Isaiah, and then John gets the same exact picture in Revelation.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think it's worth noting that in uh both of those Old Testament places when you have those words Seraphim and cherubim, there's there's been noted um difficulties in translating what those words mean. People uh that you know the best that that from Hebrew that they've been able to do with seraphim is burning ones, which you know would reflect some of this you know burning nature. And then cherubim, I think if I'm remembering correctly, the best that I've I've heard is like serving ones or things like something like that. But I mean it there there is, I think, a another very real satisfaction in this that as this is being revealed to John, yeah, it's also confirming what the prophets saw. Like it this isn't, you know, we we talked a minute ago about the figurative language aspect. This is, I mean, that while I think this includes some figurative language, it's kind of him just saying trying to describe something that he's that's there, and that has eternally been there. I mean, I think that's the other well, I say eternally, after these created ones creatures were created, creation, they've been there. There's nothing new about that. It's it's yeah, they're playing the hit, they're still playing Chris Tomlin up there, is what they're doing.
SPEAKER_02Would it be fair to say that these four creatures are in a sense aliens?
SPEAKER_00I wouldn't call them aliens. No, I would not call them aliens. No, no.
SPEAKER_03I mean, and kind of what you're getting to there, Stephen. There is, you know, you get into the the deep reaches of the internet and you start, I say deep, it's actually not that far, but uh but there there are people who will look at a lot of the phenomena from the old testament and say, oh, it's just interaction of aliens with the with the earth, and these pyramids are made by uh these chariots of the gods and stuff like that. And and if you've ever seen the movie Stargate, you know, it's it's it's like it's like okay, I I I I get where you're going. I get I mean or it's like you can talk talk with alien theory stuff of yeah, I understand that you have zero proof that that's the case. I mean, beyond zero proof, you have the billions of dollars spent by SETI that has proved nothing.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think science fiction's one thing and it makes for good movies, but isn't it sad that the state of our heart we'd rather have faith in in aliens than maybe in a living God? Yeah. I mean, isn't that sad? Because that really is what that ultimately points to is people would rather blog about aliens which have no proof at the end of the day and put all their chips a hundred percent into that basket versus God, which is uh to me a much more logical solution in a lot of these things.
SPEAKER_03Well, so I think we do need to address in a future episode uh are aliens real and what does that have to do with faith? So we'll be a hot take episode. Hot takes, guys, we can record it. All right. Okay, so keep keeping moving. Uh yeah I didn't know we were gonna talk about aliens this episode. That's great. Okay, uh next one. This one is more of a um, I guess a historical one. Uh, but the question reads, My question is about the letters to the seven churches. Since the Bible does not go beyond John sending the letters, I'm wondering if there's any historical information about what happened after the churches received them. I know it's a long shot, but does anyone know if the rebuked churches made changes? And so the the writer of this question is assuming correctly that when Jesus had these letters written to these uh time churches that were then that were functioning at that time, did they change their ways? Do we have any historical things of that? So, John and Stephen, uh any any reports on that?
SPEAKER_00I don't have any riveting reports on that um to say of the immediate change. Now, the churches as a whole in the region, there is history to be traced on that. In fact, there are tours that you can go on to go see these seven locations of these churches. Only one of them still exists as a current city of Ismir. Smyrna is now Izmir. Um there are some things you can look at historically, like I know I notated Polycarp, who was there years later, it's probably 50 years after John uh made this letter, uh, and his martyrdom there in Smyrna. So there's some, I think, extra biblical sources you can look at things that happened in that region, but historically, that's now a Muslim state known as Turkey, and these churches don't exist. I mean, at the end of the day, they all ended up getting shut down.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and there's also the letters of Irenaeus that are kind of similar. A lot they you're and interestingly enough, Irenaeus seems to kind of take a role like Paul did of instructing and guiding the bishops of these churches, um, the or the elders of these churches, I should say. Um, and you're correct that probably I think it was around 1100 A.D., you see the Seljuk Turks and then the Ottoman Turks come in and uh basically conquer the entire uh uh region of Asia Minor, Anatolia. Up until that point, you had about a thousand years of the by the of the rule by the um oh gosh, the Byzantines. Um and so there were, I mean, there were functioning bishops and churches there for quite a long time, but um at this point, yeah, there's not much left there.
SPEAKER_00And the specific first century leadership that would have received these letters, uh I don't know if I've read anything that shows of you know specific names of leaders of these churches and how they responded. So I I've not seen that. So not that I know of.
SPEAKER_03But hey, if if someone's able to find that, then you make a million dollars because I mean that'd be some pretty great archaeological evidence. But I do think uh for you intrepid scholars out there, you could look at some of these other letters that were written, like Clement, and um there are there there's there's some things out there, but most of that's gonna be hearsay of um what happened with future bishops and stuff like that. And we're talking about an extremely long time, I mean a thousand, two thousand years. I mean, it's they they don't count time like we do so much. So um anyway, I I think that it's a great question because we we we want to know, you know, what impact these words of Jesus had on the people that received them. Um but I think that's also part of the reason why it's a gift to us now that you know Jesus picked a region of churches that would cover such a great spectrum of churches that would always be around, of those, of those like as you as you put in the uh the sermon about those churches, you know, these aspects of churches that we we need to be able to grow in or avoid um or discipline ourselves, right? Um and I think that it's still that's part of how God's word is so electrifying is that it speaks now, even though it was spoken then to a particular situation. So um anyway, that but yeah, it's an encouragement. Study, I mean, it's great to study uh uh ancient Near Eastern history, especially in that uh that post-Roman period. Um there's a lot of interesting stuff that happened and a lot of interesting people who lived. Um, okay, so now question number five. I think I I think I know what how they connected this to Revelation, but um, I'll go ahead and say the first the question and then what I think the connection is. Um the per the questioner asks, I have always wondered what happened to Lazarus from the time of his death to the time of Jesus resurrecting him. Did Lazarus see God? Now, obviously, the story of Lazarus is not in the book of Revelation, and I don't even I don't even know if it was really directly referenced in the book of Revelation. However, what I think the person who is asking this question is trying to get to is on the term of soul sleep. I don't know if y'all are familiar with that. Um so if if that's the case, what would we let's let's change it, let's move this this question there then. If soul sleep is a thing, or or is soul sleep a thing, and uh how then does that apply to Lazarus's experience as kind of a first fruits of what would come later?
SPEAKER_00I believe when you die you go to one of two places ultimately. I should also pr proceed that by saying Hebrews 9 27, it's appointed for man to die once, then judgment. So so it's judgment. So you go to God, and I believe that you're judged, and there's one of two places in which you go, which we've talked about that reality quite a bit in this study. We've had to talk about heaven and hell, and thankfully we're gonna talk about a lot more heaven than hell, you know, coming up shortly as we get into the tail end of Revelation. So I I don't believe in a purgatory and a a temporary place that you're in in the middle. Um, Lazarus is a unique situation because it's not often that you die and you come back, you know, that much later.
SPEAKER_03Well, it kind of kind of reminds me of the princess bride, right? The he's only mostly and we do believe he was dead.
SPEAKER_00Now, when Jesus, what we have to look at is to the biblical examples. When Jesus died, what did he tell the thief on the cross? He said, You today you will be with me in paradise. So even Jesus had the expectation of when I die, I'm going to heaven. And he's saying to that thief, Since you now have seen who I am and you have repented of your ways, you're coming with me, buddy. You can come be in heaven. And so I think following that same model, I think it's best to understand that Lazarus went to heaven. That's that's what I believe.
SPEAKER_03Well, and a lot and kind of where I'm that that term soul sleep, uh, I'll define what I mean by that. And there, because there are several um, I would say probably Protestant mostly traditions that hold that when a person dies, their soul goes into this kind of stasis where not that they're even in a purgatory, but that they're unconscious, unconscious of anything happening at all. Like the the spirit hangs around the body. They're basically it's like they're asleep and they're waiting for the day of resurrection. And so for them, those who die, um, the idea would be they died, and then the next thing that they know, they're being raised in the in the resurrection. Um again, it's a nice, it's a nice thought, I guess. Um, and I think partly people do that for the sake of those who are going to hell because it's kind of a well, maybe they'll they'll get to avoid the the torture of hell for a time. But realistically, there there is a a chasm that is there, and you either go one way or the other. And so if soul sleep is something that you've grown up um as a doctrine, I I would encourage you really to apply that against scripture because it just doesn't really hold up to to what Jesus said, at least, if not everywhere else in the Bible. Um but I do think that um part the other part where people would probably draw that from is where um where Paul talks about um uh those who've fallen asleep and things like that. And so people kind of tend to take that more literally than they should. Yeah. When in reality he was using the euphemism of the same euphemism that Jesus uses where he says Lazarus is asleep, and he's like, Oh, okay, well, someone will wake him up and it's like, no, he's dead, dummy.
SPEAKER_00And that's why you gotta look at all the scripture together, because when he writes to the Church of Thessalonica that some have fallen asleep, he means the same thing when he says in 2 Corinthians 5 8 that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So both those things have to be true. And so by asleep, I would agree, it means that they're there with the Lord. They've they've passed from this life to the other.
SPEAKER_03Well, let's go on to the next one then. Um and this is a this is one question, but it it uh throws out three options that the the the asker um has, I guess, heard before. Um so here we go. Uh one question that has always intrigued me is why is the United States missing from end time prophecy? The main theories seem to include one, that it was destroyed at some point by sneak attack, two, that it has become impotent and irrelevant due to mismanagement of its political, economic, and military affairs, and three, that enough of its population is saved, that the rapture having occurred, it has been rendered inert due to the loss of personnel essential to run the country. Are there any other insights on this question? So uh I know Stephen, you had you had some thoughts on this yourself, as I'll kind of give you first uh shot at that.
SPEAKER_02Sure, yeah. So one thing that I thought of was you know, John's writing this in a time in history where America doesn't exist yet. So it's more than likely that even if he had seen America that he wouldn't have recognized it. Yeah. Um, but Jesus showed him exactly what he needed to know. Right. And he what he needed to relay, and he told him what these things were. Um so yeah, I mean, we don't really hear about like Australia or Iceland or other countries either.
SPEAKER_00Like, well, and I'll even add in there. We don't hear that we hear about two groups. We hear about Israel and the church. And I want to be very clear on that because the Bible speaks to two groups of of the redeemed. It's it's ultimately Israel, and then you have the church, though those that have been crafted in through Israel, through the Messiah, the root of David. And so when you look at the book of Revelation, the focus is one, it's the revelation of Jesus Christ. It's not the focus isn't about man, it's about Jesus, and it's about who he is and what he's done and what he's going to do. But the players at the table, if you will, it's the saints, which at that point it's those Jew and non-Jew who place their faith in Jesus Christ, and then you have on the other side what really will become Babylon, what will become the world as a whole that rejects Jesus Christ. So where is America in that? They're not by name, because those that are left on this earth, they're part of everything else that's happening, chaotic on earth. And I do believe the Bible points towards what we've been talking about of that one world government where there will be a conglomeration of resources and authority that will come together. And for those that are still on this earth, they would not be a part of those saints that had been raptured. And and sadly, I think many that will be on this western hemisphere as well as the eastern hemisphere, they'll be a part of that same group that that that ultimately rises together with that that spirit of Babylon. And uh that's a sad reality. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's worth noting too. I mean, you mentioned so Babylon is one of the only nation states actually, or I say nation state, it's a city state, not even a nation, um, that's mentioned here. Uh and at this point in history, I if I'm incorrect, I think I'm correct in saying that Babylon did not even exist at this time. It's symbolic. It's symbolic. And then let's add to that the fact that there was not at this time, there was not national Israel either, because they had been conquered by Rome, and so they were a Roman province. So to consider when we when we look at that, realistically, there are no nation states mentioned in the book of Revelation at all. If I if I'm I mean, correct me if I'm wrong.
SPEAKER_00It's people groups. At the end of the day, it's those for the Lamb or against the Lamb. Like that's that's really and that's really at the end of the day what life's all about. It's those who are for God or against him, those who receive the Son or reject him. And and in the book of Revelation, that's what it boils down to is two different groups, and it's a worldwide issue, it's not a regional issue.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because we we what we tend to do is because the question is our identity, right? And what we identify with. And so if if we're looking at this from the perspective of identifying as the citizen of a country, it it that's not revelation's interest so much. Um and honestly, when we look at this from a biblical worldview, the identity that we take is based in the one in whom we've believed. And uh and everybody believes in somebody, and that's gonna happen there. And so I I think that identity is something that we that is helpful for us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think also in the Great Commission where it says to go to the whole world, right? It's beyond just America and what's going on here. It's ever everywhere in the world to spread the good news so people can be saved from the wrath that is coming.
SPEAKER_00And it's also a precursor to Christ's return. He says the gospel will go to the whole world before, and that's why you even see in the revelation with the 144,000, the two witnesses, and the angel in Revelation 14, you see God bringing to fulfillment his own promise that the gospel will go across the whole world, even through supernatural means.
SPEAKER_03And the statement being every tribe, nation, and tongue. And so it it um eliminates borders, barriers, and things that we would differ we would want to differentiate ourselves from other people on earth. And I think that that does bear questioning too. You know, who do who do you uh I mean, the kind of quoting what Jesus said, who is my neighbor? Yeah, like we we we so badly want to differentiate ourselves from other people when in reality what Jesus is calling us to do is to associate ourselves with others and to share the gospel.
SPEAKER_00And I think part of our differentiation is that we also want to uh differentiate a blessing or a promise on our group of people that sometimes is not there. And I think and I and I say this as a proud American that I love my country, uh, but at the same time, there are not sovereign promises in the word of God to the United States of America. There are sovereign promises, I believe, to Israel. There are sovereign promises to the church. I believe that God is true to his word, and I believe those are the groups of people that ultimately God has put his redemptive promises into. Um now, America's been blessed with many saints, praise God, and many who do know the Lord. And even for us that are those that are the redeemed, those that are in Christ Jesus that live in America, yes, we have promises on our life, but that promise doesn't extend to your entire nation state, is what I'm trying to get at. And I think we just have to be careful with some of that.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I like to think about it this way. I I think a lot of times we we obsess over our heritage a little bit. I mean, you you have the whole 23andme thing, and everybody people seem to gravitate toward, you know, what what royalty is my bloodline from and all that? Yeah. You know, in the context of what's happening in Revelation, I I if if you're a Caucasian, I'm just gonna, you know, cut cut it for you that you're a barbarian. Like you're you're part of those people that were, you know, worship worshiping pagan idols and eating people and stuff like that. I mean, it's you might not want to point to that for your heritage, it but you know, that thank God that responsibility falls on us to be able to make this choice of am I gonna identify with people of God or with the people of of the world? And um, you know, we're given that ability.
SPEAKER_00And I think I I think we just gotta make sure we look as we look to the future too. For us, the solution is the gospel. We want America. America, if America's gonna receive a blessing, it's because we are bowing our knee to the Lord Jesus Christ as a people. I do believe that his people are blessed, and I believe a nation that is marked and filled with his people, yeah, blessing does come, I believe, with that. But the nation state itself does not is not the source of the promise. The promise comes through being justified through faith in Jesus Christ and being his children. So our objective is to create more more of his children, to get bring more into his family here in this nation, and then blessings I do believe can and will come.
SPEAKER_03All right. Well, then let's get to these will be our last two questions. So this ask gave me a whole list of five of. Them and but I do think it kind of boils down into two things. And so the first question why is popular Christianity so obsessed with eschatological systems, that means in time, in time theory systems, and why do you think it's a hot topic of debate and even a barrier to fellowship in some Christian circles? And so I think we we all know, I mean, there there are institutions that make you sign that some some uh Christian institutions that make you sign a document saying that you believe in a specific eschatological system, um, or they won't allow you to teach there. Um, you know, so let let's let's talk about that. So what why is it that we spend so much time and thought and energy in these systems, even though they might be highly debatable?
SPEAKER_00I think the fascination with the topic, I'll start there, I think comes from an innate desire in us, probably more of an existential thing, that we that Ecclesiastes 3.11, God's put eternity into man's heart, yet not so that he can find it. So I think that all of us we want to know where's this going and how's this going to end, whether you're a Christian or not. I think everybody. That's why our culture, we've talked about this, is fascinated with apocalyptic uh reading, writing, uh writing, movies, etc. Like this idea of the end times is on people's mind, I think innately, because we're made in the image of God and we were wired to think this way. So on the other side, then for the Christian perspective, why is Christianity so obsessed? It's partly because we're human, like I just said. Uh but then on the spiritual realm, I think candidly, I think pride is a huge driving influence of this. Now, first there's the I'll say the good side is the godly part of it, is yes, we want to be ready, because Jesus says be ready. So there's part of it of studying your word and understanding what he's revealed of the things to come, and that is good discipleship. We need to know God's word and understand what's to come. But why has it become such a hot topic of debate? Goes to what I said. It's because of pride. Uh, because we also want to be the smartest people. We want to have the answers, and we love creating teams and tribes. Sadly, this goes to the first century church, and Paul had to deal with this with the church of Corinth, that we like building teams within our team of the family of God.
SPEAKER_03I do think it bears noting too, because you made that statement of why our and the kind of the question is why do we now focus so much on it? The reality is they have since the since the Christ left. Even to the extent of the the guys who are standing there in Acts 1 and Acts chapter 1, Jesus has just told them it's not for you to know the epics or the times at which these things are happening. He goes up into heaven and they're just sitting there staring. They're they think it's happening. They I mean it's pretty clear in the text, they think it's happening right then.
SPEAKER_00And the debate ensued. That's why Paul writes his letters to the churches, to the Church of Thessalonica. Because they were debating and questioning and all that stuff. I agree.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and so it there's nothing new about that. And there is that that and that desire to seek. But that also speaks to another one of the questions that the the asker did uh that was further on down where it's uh talks about the the unclarity of this, but um where Jesus, yeah, Jesus says no one will know the hour, so should we just not try to guess the hour? So kind of I guess it's kind of the flip side of that of the of the question that we originally asked. Why are people so obsessed with it? And then the second part is because it's it's ill-defined, should we just not try to talk about or study about or understand about it?
SPEAKER_00You absolutely should try, and it's a balance, and this comes down to a hard issue. You have to try because all scripture is God breathed, and this was given to us. So if all scripture is God breathed and profitable, that means the book of Revelation is profitable for us as well. Uh and it also, I've talked about this when I preached it, it's the only book that has a direct attached promise that comes with it. Jesus says, Blessed are those who hear this word, speak this word, and keep this word. So this is a word that that needs to be considered. But the question is, what are we looking for in the text? If you're looking for the time and the date and for you to have everything in control under your authority, where now I can, in a sense, control and know what's happening. And and this is where it gets sneaky, I think, in the deceit of our hearts, because a lot of Christians say, Well, I wouldn't say that, you know, I wouldn't. I'd like, yeah, but you've drawn a lot of charts, you know, and then you really you really act like it, even though you won't say it. You act like you really got this thing tied up pretty clean. Um, and so I think it comes to the the deceit in our hearts, and we have to ask, what is the purpose? If the purpose is to be faithful to God in this time of waiting and to understand what's to come and to find hope in our time of tribulation that we face today, because we are always in tribulation, Jesus says that in John 16, then that's good. That's good study because there's hope in this book, and that's why I even called the series Our Hope is on the throne. There's hope when you understand the book of really what it has to say. And Jesus wants us to have hope in that. So, yes, you should study so you understand what's to come, you're prepared, but also so you can find the hope and comfort in knowing what's to come.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think also, I mean, you you think about the nature of physical pursuits and things like that. Like if you're trying to, if you are trying to run as fast as you possibly can and you and you try to go for a four-minute mile, right? That's I mean, that's all world kind of stuff, right? I think it is. Is a four-minute mile? It's pretty fast. I'm never I'm never gonna see a four-minute mile again at my current rate. So it's like it's like Kenya fast. Kenya fast, yes. So okay, that you you put that. All right, so that's what you're pursuing. You may never get to it because of your physical limitations, but what's gonna happen if you're if you are legitimately and honorably and with integrity pursuing that goal, you're gonna become a better runner. The quality of the way that you run is going to get better. Um, and I look at uh uh end time study similarly to that, that you know what, we we understand, and Jesus even told us you're never gonna completely get this. And there are multiple avenues of our faith that are that are here, talking about predestination, talking about uh age of the world, stuff like that. So because we know that we're never going to get to a firm final answer about it in this life, does that mean we shouldn't pursue it? No. I mean, if if we're it got if God has given us that desire to seek and to discover and to learn, there's no problem with that. And uh what strikes me in that is that with the book of Revelation, it's not about not theorizing about things. It's okay to theorize and to and to make a hypothesis on this, right? Yeah. But it's not about what you theorize, but more how and why you do. Because where most bridges are burned are the ways that people do this, where it becomes a my way or the highway, or you are right, if you are wrong, I'm going to, you know, damn you to hell because you don't believe in a um post-tribulational rapture or something like that. Like there the there is a problem there because the quality of what you're doing is not correct. And so you may never get to the answer, but are you going to be showing Christ's grace through your life in the way that you even theorize and study this? So, I mean, what do y'all think about that?
SPEAKER_00I think there's a lot that uh you can find peace on and know. I will also say that. I think it's important to remind the listeners there are some things I think you can know, and and there's some things that you have to openly look at and say, this is what I think. But but you find peace and understand some of the different perspectives. For instance, I talked about the rapture earlier and we could have talked longer about it, but I find peace in a pre-tribulational rapture perspective. And really, you all should find peace. That's really what we all should be cheering for. But but but but biblically, you better hope. Yeah, you better hope. Even if you don't believe in it, you better hope in it. But through my time of study, it's given me peace to come to a point of conviction of I hold it open-handedly that I could be wrong, but by golly, this seems to make sense off of my study, and this is where my conviction is, and there's peace saying I can look at this, but there's also peace in knowing the realities. I think there's some stuff in the book of Revelation, it's like, no, we get it. This is gonna happen. I believe, I believe there's some non-negotiables in this book, too, that we need to be looking for, and maybe the sequence and the timing, but knowing those things also gives you peace because it prepares you for these things. And so I don't think studying the book is a foolish, a fool's errand. I think it actually prepares you for the future, helps you understand and make sense of the world and the trajectory of this world. And then in regards to the chronology of this world and the future, you just have to be a little bit open-handed on how those things will sometimes be pieced together.
SPEAKER_03Well, and certainly living your life as though you believe that Christ is coming back, yeah, and you know Christ is coming back, will change the way you live now. And I think that that's always something to for us to consider. Um, let's go to this last question then. Um so the the the ask is saying, and I'm gonna try to I'm gonna try to summarize this because it was three three pretty long questions. Um if John is writing a letter to the churches of that time, can we assume that is intended to be understood by that audience? Should that inform our hermeneutic or for other terms, interpretation in our interpretation of the letter? Um he also goes on to talk about the um the effect of uh Old Testament uh Old Testament references that that people would understand, and also ultimately just how scary a lot of modern depictions and movies and and art, um Dante's Inferno, for example, um, you know, uh are used. And so the the overall question here then we know that this was written in a time frame here in somewhere between 70 and 100 AD, and that nothing that was written in scripture is everything that is written in scripture was meant to go to an audience at that time. So the the person who's asking is how should that affect the way that we interpret the overall letter of Revelation of John?
SPEAKER_00I don't I don't distinguish that a lot different from a hermeneutical approach to any other epistle, because if you think about Paul's letters, you know really quickly, big word, big word alert.
SPEAKER_03Can you explain interpretation?
SPEAKER_00Interpretation and epistles are letters. Sorry, yes, this is a bunch of church talk. So seminary? Wow. Yeah, so because what I'm getting at with hermeneutics, I mean, you're trying to figure out how to rightfully interpret scripture. That's what this question is asking on. And in every epistle letter that is in your New Testament was written to a local church. It was written to one. Paul wrote to churches that were real in the same way that that those churches of Revelation were real, and they're receiving that, and there is instruction that is there for them in that moment that's relevant to their world they live in, but there's also instruction through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for us in the world we live in today. Um, and so in the same way with the book of Revelation, with those letters, specifically chapters two and three, that are going to those local churches, those were local church problems, but they were relevant to us today. But also, I think this book is unique in that things shift where it's no longer local church problems. Like I think it's universal. And those local church problems were really symbolic, I believe, of universal church problems as well. But then you get at chapter four and it shifts to the throne room and chapter four and five, and then chapter six, it shifts to the future and it shifts to the tribulation, and then ultimately the things to come in chapters 19 through 22. So I think the local, you know, church of that background of that church, it's incredibly relevant. I think in those early chapters, when you're talking about chapters two and three, in the latter chapters, I believe that this is prophecy. It's prophecy trying to tell us of the things to come in the same way where I would look at that more of a prophetic word, more like into the Old Testament prophets, yeah, as opposed to a New Testament uh uh apostle who's writing specifically in his epistle only to a local church.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I will say that idea of the universal church, now that's a very loaded term, and it's all over the place. But I do I do think it's important for us to understand the people that were receiving this letter are now in that crowd in front of the throne. Like that their story is shown here. That so this definitely affected them. It is just like it affects us. And you know, if if Christ doesn't come back in our lifetimes, guess where we're gonna get to be participating before he decides to come back. And so as far as the relevance of it, of course it is. And I I think I think this is helpful for people as you're learning how to read the Bible. We we we like to try to subdivide this. So, and this is gonna this is gonna sound harsh, but a lot of times when I've seen biblical interpretation used and and a hyper a hyper focus on the context of the layers in which they were originally written, usually it's as a way to excuse our behavior now. Um we like to do that because there are things that are hard in the text to understand, and so we just throw it away to well, it was context of that time. It was culture. Yeah, yeah. They were they'd be crazy, yo, right? Uh that maybe sound terrible and stupid, but okay, so consider this. So you have a a similar but obviously not um inspired text, but the Declaration of Independence of the United States, you know, written in 1776. Right. You know, that was written to King George of England. Well, where is old King Georgia now? Homeboy's been dead for 300 years. So does that mean then that the principles that were put out in the Declaration of Independence are no longer applicable to us? Now you're about to get political. Yeah, there are some that would say, yes, it's changed.
SPEAKER_00For our socialistic world, then there's some that might actually debate.
SPEAKER_03But I think it is very important if you're going to legitimately interpret a literary text of any kind, there are universal principles that are there. Okay. There are things that if something is claimed as absolute truth, then that remains absolute truth throughout history. It's not maybe less about the specifics, more about the universal principles. And so for us to look at the the book of Revelation and say, oh, well, it was just influenced by the fact that the guy had never seen helicopters before, there are principles that are bigger than those details that are here inherent in the text. And you and we have to be able, interpretation means understanding the text for all it's worth. It doesn't mean allegorize everything to try to make it make sense, but it try it does say try to read it to understand. That is okay to do. Um, and so I guess all of that wrapped up. We need to be careful that we don't over we don't so over-academize if that's a word, done smart think it, you know, to the extent to where it becomes ununderstandable, right? Or where it gives us a pass to say, I just want to ignore that. Try to understand these things and understand that we have a God who there's not a question so big he can't meet us on it and let us wrestle with these things in our souls. That's that's the largest part of the spiritual discipline of reading scripture, is wrestling with it and seeing and holding it up to your own life and seeing your own zits and acne in the mirror and saying, All right, maybe, maybe the sin that God's talking about here is not so far from me as I would as I would suppose.
SPEAKER_00I will also throw out there just kind of as a final thought on that that topic. At the end of the book that we'll get to in the coming months, in Revelation 19, before the book is closed and it's done, there's a promise that a warning that John gives at the tail end of the book, which to me is further evidence that this book is for us and it's for everyone, and it's not a cultural, like you said, just a lot of it. It's not because in verse 18 of chapter 22, John writes, I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city which are described in this book. You cannot have a stronger warning to one, not hide this book, don't take away from it, don't close it. But he says also don't add to it. Don't don't say, well, this was just a cultural thing, and let me correct it. I'll tell John what he actually meant by that. And so you get really arrogant, and you're in the realm of damnation at this point, based on what he just said. He just said that person, and I'm using this word not in a curse word, I'm using it in its literal sense, that person will be damned to hell if he adds to this book or takes something away from this book because this book is to live forever. And so to that point, it's a very serious question. And I know whoever asked that question, you weren't taking a hot take, I presume, on that. No, the way we got here. But I think it's a good warning and reminder to all of us that this book matters. Like John wants us to have this book through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and God's saying, if you don't listen to this book, if you add to it, if you take away, if you close it, you're in trouble because this book gives life. It tells us really the fullest, full picture at the end of the day of our redemption and salvation through Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_03And uh I do want to, before we close here, just want to make a remark on all these questions that were asked. These are all good questions. Nothing that was submitted to us was not was not well thought through and representing a things that people really do wonder about. And so, you know, friends, as you as you listen to this, I want you to be encouraged that I think God honors inquisitive minds. I I think that um when when you look at the example of the the people um in scripture, the one one of the ones that was honored, I think it was the Bereans who who said who said, All right, we're gonna go back and read scripture and see, you know, is this what is true? And so that's our hope for you, is that this series, that even as we're talking about these different things, don't just take our word for it. Look, look at scripture yourself. Like that's the only way that any of the three of us have come to any of our opinions on this is based off of study and thought and wrestling with these things in our hearts and souls, knowing that burden that Jonathan just talked about, that you know, there is a pretty high, high barrier on this of be careful what you what you assume. Yeah. Um but anyway, uh with that though, ask, ask away. Know that God loves you, and uh it's honoring to him to study the book that he he made for us. So um, all right, so guys, that that's the end of our questions today. Um, any last thoughts before we close?
SPEAKER_00I appreciate y'all sticking around and and giving us these questions. They were very helpful. So hope these answers helped you. Uh, I will also tell you make sure you re-engage after Easter in this study. We're gonna pick up in chapter 19 through 22. So there were some things we did not answer. There's some questions we're not gonna talk about yet because ultimately we're about to talk about them in chapters 19 through 22. So the good news is we're getting past the tribulation, all these things, and we get to see really exciting things, which is the imminent return of Christ uh coming in chapter 19. So thanks for studying with us and just hang in there. All the good stuff is coming soon.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, including a description of hell and heaven. That's always a that's always a fun, always fun episodes. Uh Steven, anything for the listeners? All right. Well, hey, thank you for joining us today for uh the Citizen ATX podcast of Revelations, Revelation, I almost said it the wrong way. Revelation, director's cut. We hope that you do continue to engage. And just because we're moving away from the question episode does not mean that you you can't still submit questions to us. Please do it through info at AustinBaptistchurch.com or by direct messaging us through our Instagram page at Austin Baptist Church. But hey, friends, take care, and we look forward to jumping in with you next time on the Director's Cut series. And from Jonathan and Stephen and myself, we're wishing you a happy week, and we'll see you next time on the Citizen ATX Podcast.