Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Revelation_Directors Cut: His Glorious Return
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What are your favorite battle scene speeches in cinematic history? My top two are: the Braveheart speech and Russell Crowe's final monologue from Gladiator. We all have this picture of what a great war hero looks like. However, Jesus' final battle will be much greater! Join Matt, Stephen, and Jonathan as they discuss the battle that is already won in Revelation 19:11-21.
Hello there, and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillam, and we are glad you are joining us as we are starting episode 13 of the Revelation Director's Cut series. Each week we've been going through a piece of the Book of Revelation, uh following along with the present sermon series that's going on here in Austin Baptist Church. And so we are glad as you're joining us today as we deal with the second half of chapter 19 of Revelation. Today with me in the studio is Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan.
SPEAKER_00Howdy, Matthews.
SPEAKER_01And also with me is Stephen Vaughn. Hello, Stephen.
SPEAKER_03Hello.
SPEAKER_01And so where I want to start today first is on an unrelated matter. We had an argument earlier. Um and often we have arguments here in the office, but we there was a trivia question that came up yesterday about the furthest place that ABC has gone in missions. Oh wow. And uh so on this with this multiple choice, one of the answers was Cairo, Egypt, and the other was Myanmar, which is uh, if you don't know, Southeast Asia and Burma. There were several, including Jonathan, who's sitting across from me, that believed that Cairo was further than Myanmar. And Stephen, I want to hear what do you think? Do you think it's further? Definitely not definitely.
SPEAKER_00Here's where I was coming from, and I'll first, as you sell me out, I'll admit maybe I'm more uh gifted in theology than geography, but at the same time, earth or full journey here. Here's what I'm gonna say. I have traveled to Cairo twice, and that is a 24-hour trip. I was looking in the totality because it is two very long flights from Austin, Texas, one to Europe and then one from Europe to Egypt. And in total, it is a 24-hour experience. Now, the amount of time in the plane from A to B from here to Myanmar perhaps is a little longer.
SPEAKER_01However, maybe maybe 1700 miles.
SPEAKER_00How many more hours really is it in trip? How many more hours?
SPEAKER_01When you're coming back from Asia, you land before you arrive. You land before you left. I mean, it it is bizarre. Like if you leave at 2 p.m. Yeah, if you leave at 2 p.m. on a Saturday, you arrive at like noon on Saturday. It's it's crazy.
SPEAKER_00So it's actually closer at the point.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, I just had to make sure that everybody knew that I was correct about this. And that Myanmar is indeed 8,700 miles from Austin, Texas, whereas Cairo is a mere 7,000 miles. What's a thousand miles? What's a thousand miles between friends? Just an opportunity to watch another alien movie while you're on the plane. Okay, let's jump in here to Revelation 19. And going from some very light-hearted stuff, some pretty serious stuff as we're literally talking about Armageddon here today. Wow. That's a transition. Wow, that's that for a segue, right? Well, one thing I didn't want to start off with, though, and this is again kind of a um, I wouldn't say it's a sidetrack, but it is something that's important if you're reading the Bible for yourself. Um, the the listeners might question, okay, we've been going each week for one or two chapters at a time, but all of a sudden here in chapter 19, we stopped right in the middle of what was going on. I mean, shouldn't it be that if we're trying to follow what's biblical, why wouldn't we not follow just a chapter at a time? Is there is there a reason for that, even specifically related to like chapters, verses, things like that?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'll I'll also say Revelation, you could preach it as long as you want to, really, at the end of the day. I mean, you could break up chapters and subchapters and all of that. So really, uh when I outlined this, I tried to outline it accordingly with themes, you know, that were going together. So as we walked through really the tribulation time from chapters six to eighteen, we put together different themes there within the the seals, the trumpets, the bowls, and the interludes that kind of came between, and we really focused a sermon at a time within each one of those chapters, if you will. Uh the final chapters of Revelation, 19, 20, 21, and 22, uh, are shorter, but they're full of content. And there's a lot of content that that are really separate, different ideas that are building on top of one another. And so that's why I felt it was, you know, compelling to slow down, especially here, versus when you have, for instance, seven seals, you know, that are being taken off and they're all coming across sequentially over a couple chapters, uh, versus you have uh the establishment of the kingdom and all of eternity future, you know, it's a lot to unpack.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. And I'll also say, too, you know, from a basic interpretive measure, we have to remember that the scripture as it was written did not include chapters and verses. Those things were were added later. And so for some times you may you may be in church and you might wonder why did the preacher go two verses past the end of the chapter if the chapter is there? It's because somebody way back when made a decision, hey, we're gonna divvy this up by verse and chapter. They did it based off of their interpretation at the time, which at different times excluded keeping these ideas together. And so the the idea with this one, even particularly of dividing 19 in half, as we talked about last week, the first half of this is still in the interlude. Exactly. It's still outside of the timeline. When we hit here in verse 11, you have this then statement, and heaven opens, and all the business that has been building up there in heaven now gets released. Right. And so with all of that, um, we're back on the timeline here, and we have here very shortly this idea of glory get get put out. That you know, as as Jesus is riding forward on um a white horse, there is this overall feeling of glory. And uh, we throw around this term glory a lot, especially in sports, right? We talk about all that. So, what what is glory, Jonathan? Like, how how are we to understand this and uh understand why it's present there when Jesus returns?
SPEAKER_00Defining glory theologically is a uh honestly kind of a difficult exercise. So this might be a little bit more of a long-winded answer. I'll I'll start on the short end on the front end. Usually when people think of the glory of God, they're speaking to the beauty, the magnificence, and the infinite perfection of our God. Uh but when you get into that idea of glory, there's uh really these two different uh categories. You have intrinsic glory and then you have extrinsic glory. Intrinsic is the inerrant glory that belongs to him alone, and it's independent of his works. God is glorious, he's filled with glory because he's perfect, magnificent, uh, and beautiful. And then there's the extrinsic glory, which is a reflection of his intrinsic glory. It's being partially communicated to us to see and enjoy, and that comes through, namely, primarily his creation and then ultimately his redemption, his redemptive plan. And you see that glory being demonstrated. So glory itself, when you think of it and you look at it in the Bible, they actually have two different words in the Hebrew in the Old Testament versus in the New Testament. In the Hebrew, the word I believe is covid, covod, and and the word it means weight, actually, is the actual technical term. And that word is used to describe the weight, once again, the honor, the power, the majesty. But then in the New Testament, it's doxa, and it's a use a different Greek word, but it communicating the same idea of honor and once again the weight of God. So when we talk about glory though in churches, it's important and it's worth us noting that the glory of God, and just specifically the word glory, it can take on the form of a no a noun, an adjective adjective, or a verb. Like God is glorious, that's an adjective, it's describing who he is, he is perfect and beautiful, but he's also revealed his glory to us through that extrinsic glory that we enjoy. But we are also called to glorify him, which is a verb, it's an action that we then give him honor because of who he is and what we've seen through his revelation. So uh it's a packed word. There's a lot there. I I know it's a lot of content just to go through in two minutes, but uh, it's a lot to consider.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it it is the nature of when in Jesus when Jesus returns, it's not something that can be taken with a light heart. I mean, I've always thought about that with the idea of glory equated with weight. So in this world, everything things that have weight also have value because they can't. I mean, you think about the fact that most of our monetary systems are based on weights. Um, I know I even saw in the the grocery store the other day I was going through scanning and they said complain complain about a scale. And I'm like, you know, I never think about that, but realistically, the val the weight of this is the value of this produce or whatever it is you're getting. And so when whenever we're seeing all of these pictures of glory, there are things you can't you can't just drive by, you can't just you know let let wash over you. I mean, it it it it is something to be experienced and to and to pause at. Um and so you know, likewise with his glory, we have kind of an interesting thing happen here, especially in chapter 19, that has to do with violence. So, you know, in the sermon you made mention of the fact that he's wearing a robe that's dipped in blood. And a lot of times we like to try to allegorize that away, but it doesn't say you know, wine or anything, it says it says blood. So one would imagine that means blood. And uh, you mean you also consider that at the end of this, uh I I was uh looking at this earlier, um, that in verse 20 it talks about the lake, the fire that burns with sulfur. If you've ever heard if you've ever smelled sulfur, it it ain't great. Um, and then you have uh this the idea of all these birds having the supper of the Lord, and it says literally at the end of verse 21, literally that the birds were gorged with the flesh of all these people. So how can we have this glorious picture of Jesus coming forward and yet still this picture of violence, of but I you know, kind of the the idea of the glory in the gross? Like it means with with what's happening here, this is not a pretty picture. And so how can those two things you know coexist?
SPEAKER_00Well it's worth reminding ourselves that the violence you see in here, it's righteous judgment. You know, it's not just grotesque, sinful violence. When we use the term violence, we normally uh uh correlate that, put that with the idea of you know, sin and harm and wrong, you know, at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_01Like the Saw franchise. Yeah, there you go.
SPEAKER_00But but in the sense of the violence we're talking about here, it's it's actually righteous judgment we're looking at. And so glory, once again, if glory is the weight of God and really the infinite worth of his perfection, that's really what glory really is, then uh this judgment comes in light really uh as a demonstration of his glory because God is perfect, he cannot tolerate evil. So in his glory, uh he sends his son to then judge the world, and that's what we see right there in Revelation 19. And he's actually receiving glory from the earth and from the redeemed, and even through those who are being judged, because ultimately he's receiving glory for being perfect and judging that which is wicked in his perfect righteousness. Um, so it's a tough pill to swallow, especially for those who don't know the Lord, because then they they get uh offended, I guess, by this picture. But that but ultimately our sin offends him. And that's that's the idea is that because he's perfect in his perfect glory, he has to respond to that sin through righteous judgment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, and it is that basic human um not even human, but the basic premise of justice, eye for an eye. And you know, we we we so often want to arbitrate what goodness and righteousness is based on the way that we look at ourselves. And um, I know as a parent sometimes that's a struggle, right? We want to look at ourselves as fun dad or whatever, you know, stuff like that. But when your kid does something wrong, you've got to figure out how can I make this right and how can I help them well in in this in their case, because there is an opportunity for redemption, how can I how can the punishment lead toward redemption so they can make the right choice in the future? We're beyond that here. Like uh, you know, we've talked about in a previous episode the difference between wrath and discipline. This is not discipline, this is wrath, this is fury, this is judgment, this is the everything about responding to the wrong that was done without the possibility of redemption.
SPEAKER_00And and I think it's worth us reminding that ultimately because God is glorious, he will receive his glory from each of our lives. And and we can give him glory by responding to that extrinsic glory of his redemptive plan and and surrendering to him uh in his glory, or we will give him glory through ultimately our submission that's forced upon us in judgment. And that's what you even see in that Philippians 2 picture, that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. It says every knee on heaven and earth and under the earth, meaning even the judged are gonna bow their knee and give glory to God and call Jesus Lord uh in their judgment. So that that's what we see is God is full of glory and no one will rob him ultimately of his glory. Uh and we can choose to glorify him, which is what we do in Christ. We choose to glorify him for who he is and what he's done. But others will be forced to glorify him as he righteously judges in that moment for who he is and what he's done.
SPEAKER_01Well, speaking on that giving of glory uh piece here, one of the one of the things that you see throughout the book of Revelation, and you see it multiple, actually four to five times here in chapter 19, is naming names, right? And so you see uh even it's kind of this kind of interesting profession, procession of names that he's called, name and names that are written about him. Um so I guess one of the questions that comes to my mind is what what's in a name? Like why why is it that whenever you have this revelation of uh of Jesus Christ, and you also have uh at the same at the same time before this, the revelation of the Antichrist and the beast. Why does the why does the author John of this and and ultimately God in revealing this make such a big ne deal out of out of these names?
SPEAKER_00What why what is what's so important about them? Names of God always communicate attributes of God, truth about God, and there's a lot of names of God in the Old Testament and New Testament, and even with Jesus Himself, there are many names, even we've seen in this book. So, for instance, the Lamb of God, the Lion of Judah, the root of David. You know, there's been names that we've been learning about Jesus through the study, but there's uh these names that come specifically in this moment of his second coming, and they tie in to his second coming. I mean, they tie into what he's achieving and doing in this moment. Like the first name that comes out is that he's faithful and true. Uh that name actually Jesus introduced himself that way to the church of Laodicea in Revelation, I think it was chapter three, verse 17. But he uh he's identified as faithful and true in his coming because he's faithful to his promises and he is the truth that all will see, no one will be able to question in his second coming. But he's also identified as the word of God, which John himself identified in that earlier in his life in the gospel of John that he wrote when he told us in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. It's showing us that this is the same Jesus that from the first coming is the same Jesus that's there in the second coming. And when he's called the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, it points to what he's coming to do. He's coming to establish a kingdom and he's coming to judge as Lord uh of all of creation. And so the names that I think are disclosed, I guess, specifically in that passage, they speak to him specifically in his second coming and what he's coming to do. But it also doesn't negate all the other names, you know, that we've already heard about him. Those are all descriptive of Jesus and they help us understand who he is and what he's done for us.
SPEAKER_01Well, and there is a unique kind of thing here where, you know, like the the ba the basic um premise of what humanity is supposed to do was to name things, right? And I mean, when whenever you look at what Adam's job was in the garden, it was to discern and to name and to give names and to have dominion over nation over nature. Um, all of these names don't give mankind dominion over him, even to the extent where you have the name that no one knows but himself. Yeah, you know, that's that's the ultimate of it. Yeah. You you don't get to hear it. Yeah, yeah. You don't you this is my name and you can't have it. And um, you know, it does I think speak to us understanding these identities of these words that we see in scripture, that they are a lot deeper than maybe just being called Otis or something like that. I mean, it's I don't know why I thought about Otis. I mean, they're they're there for a purpose. And I think it's important for us to understand that that so often we as humans want to try to control what we read, the content, even to the extent of the book of Revelation, people take interpretation in such a way so that they can control the outcome of it. And ultimately, Jesus says, I'm not playing your game. Like I I this this is my game at this point, even to the extent that you see all of those who were saved whose robes are washed white, right, in this, following after him. And so in in this context, Jonathan, you know, how what what are they doing by following him? Like, I mean, they're just hanging out, you know, just kind of trotting along. I mean, do they have a purpose in following along after Jesus as he's pulling pulling the sword out of his mouth and ruling with iron rod and all that?
SPEAKER_00Their purpose is to to be his followers and to be what Jesus said we would be. He said we would co-reign with him, so they're coming to co-reign with him, that we're co-conquerors with him. He's coming to conquer and they're conquering alongside him. Uh, there's these promises that you're seeing fulfilled there eschatologically in the second coming of Christ, where those descriptors are becoming present realities that we're starting to do those things with him. But what I pointed out in the sermon was the way we do them is simply by following him. Like it's not about us. Like now nowhere in that in that picture does God's army, the redeemed, the church, come with all these swords and weapons. We're just following him. And and I think it's a good picture if that's what we've always been called to do. Like we're called to follow him. That is what a disciple is. It's a follower of Jesus Christ. So in our discipleship, even in glory, we are still just following him. We're not in charge, we're just glad to be with him. And that is that is ultimately our story today, and that that's really going to be our story for all of eternity.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think that's a bit of interesting, um, interesting. Oh gosh, what's the word? Um, a very interesting juxtaposition here because you have the church following after Jesus, and then you have Armageddon, which, you know, we've been building up to this for 19 chapters, you've been all this big stuff, everybody's ready, they're all bowed up, ready to go. And is it it is extremely short. I mean, it doesn't even doesn't even really say outside of he just went up and he threw the he threw the beast and the prophet in hell. I mean, it's that's just it. Um Yeah, and then everybody else was killed and so slaughtered, really. Um so I mean, what are we gonna make of that? That you know, Armageddon was this big thing built up in our minds, but and yet in Jesus' it's kind of a foregone conclusion.
SPEAKER_00I think what we make of it is that we're too informed by movies and blogs and wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
SPEAKER_01Bruce Willis isn't gonna be there like trying to shoot a nuclear weapon at an asteroid.
SPEAKER_00I mean, if you just read the Bible, that's what it says. It says, I read one commentator, he said it's not a battlefield, it's a slaughter field. And that and that honestly, as sobering as that that verbiage is, you know, it it's it's true though. Um there's not a picture of a true battle in that sense. It's the army showing up and Jesus then showing up and they're done. Um and that's why I read that verse from Paul and Second Thessalonians yesterday that uh Jesus will defend defeat the lawless one, 2 Thessalonians, I believe it's two, chapter chapter 2, verse 8. He says, by the appearance of his coming and and the breadth of his power, I believe something to that effect. And that's what you see there in Revelation 19. He just shows up and nothing, then there's nothing else really that's said, and that's because Paul said that's the way it is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, so I think it's reassuring though. I think that's what we take from that. Maybe you read it and you're looking for like this climactic, big, you know, epic battle. The ending's actually better than that. Like there's there is no suspense. Like we we know it's gonna have the ending for the redeemed. The happy ending for the redeemed.
SPEAKER_01You mean they don't need a Marvel 10 sequel movie series to uh do the whole thing and really not do it well.
SPEAKER_00But that's why this book is really meant to be a book of hope once again for believers. That's why, you know, as the the church going through tribulation receives this uh there when John writes this initially, they were enduring all forms of persecution, and what they get to see as they read this is like, oh, Jesus wins, it's all gonna be okay, and there's really not gonna be a battle at the end. And for us today, it's the same message that as you go through the world and things look like the enemy's winning, you get to just look at the end and say, Oh, actually, this is all gonna end really quickly and swiftly uh because no one really can compete with Jesus. He's gonna do what he said he's gonna do.
SPEAKER_01Well, and what does that say for the battles that we build up in our minds and hearts and our lives? That if we're, you know, we talk we talk often about, well, let's let Jesus help us fight our battles and give us the strength for all these things, and yet we build up these conflicts into these big, huge things. I mean, what what is that does does this speak anything to that?
SPEAKER_00I think it does, absolutely. Um, because the imagery, I think, still is relevant to a modern day context of what's the believer's responsibility is to follow Jesus above all. So so then we will be following him and he will have all the strength and all the power, and he's the one that's gonna ultimately bring good from that battlefield, if you will. And it's the same thing in a modern day context. What we're called to do is not necessarily fix every problem and certainly not fix them in our own strength. We're called to abide in Christ and to follow him. And then through his strength and following him, he's gonna bring good even from broken situations in this world. Um, it's that reassuring promise of Romans 8 28 that all things work together for the good, for those who love God and are called according to his purpose. So even in the harmful battles we find ourselves in today, and we feel like we're losing, if you're following Jesus, you're winning because ultimately he's gonna give you the strength. In that battle, and then good will come from that battle even when you cannot fully see it.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think sometimes our struggle is that we don't really internally want Jesus to win. We want to win. Yeah. Um, I mean, ultimately, if you rely on Jesus and you rely on his power to get you through situations, ultimately you can't take the credit. And we we are so obsessed with our own strength and invulnerability that it's hard for us to take that step back, to take hands off and to let Jesus do the work for us. Or to, and I mean that that obviously is a swinging pendulum of activity. Well, I mean, I shouldn't pay my taxes. No, go ahead and pay your taxes. That's that's not a bad thing. But ultimately, like what your heart is leaning on, uh it's just it it's the nature of we want to be the ones responsible. We want the credit, but we don't want the blame. And um and so it is hard, I think that's where a lot of us fall short when we look at these big battles that we that we're gonna go through or these big struggles that we're gonna go through as if it were all on us because we internally want the credit for it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um when in reality, it's good luck, you're gonna fail. It's it's gonna happen. Yeah. Um if if Christ isn't in it.
SPEAKER_00And it's never been about us getting the credit. That's just the humble, you know, reality we have to remind ourselves of.
SPEAKER_01Well, and the and the people getting eaten on the field, these kings and soldiers and the people who got all the credit and glory are the ones that are getting their insides eat up by birds.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's exactly right. And I think and I think what we have to remind ourselves, because sometimes you might say, well, okay, well, I'm in a health battle and I'm losing, or I'm in a battle financially and I'm losing. You know, I can't just what am I supposed to do? Just trust Jesus and just hope everything works out. I don't also want to want to oversimplify this. We are called to work, we're called to toil on this earth, we're called to cultivate and create. So there is a human responsibility we carry on this earth for us to do the best with what God has given us, and we cultivate and we work hard. But the point is you work hard through the strength of God, through Jesus Christ. That's why Paul says I can do all things through Jesus Christ who strengthens me. Paul's still doing work, lots of work, but he's just saying, I can do it if I lean on Christ, then I can get through this battle. And the point is, is even at that battle, maybe you didn't get what you wanted or things are still hard. You still win. That's the point is you win because you experience his strength that sustains you, because it matures you, and one day, because all of that pain will be gone. And that's what we see here at the end of Revelation.
SPEAKER_01Well, and not to mention the amount of pain that worry causes. I mean, you quoted in the sermon yesterday, um, the uh from Matthew chapter six, uh uh gosh. Verse 33. Verse 33. I haven't had coffee today and it shows. But uh earlier in that passage, uh Jesus says, you know, who who but uh of you by worrying can add one hour to your life? And then he comes up after that saying, Um, go ahead and do that. Go ahead and quote it because I'm I'm losing it right now. And then he follows that up with, so therefore do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, for your father knows you need these things. Or actually, no, that's earlier. It goes after that it says, Um, let tomorrow have uh worry about let tomorrow worry about itself, for each day has enough worries of its own. After I've butchered all that. There you go. You got there. It was all in there in a big bag, you know. But I mean ultimately I think that that's where a lot of us fall short, is that we say, well, you know, I'm gonna trust God in this, but I'm gonna worry the heck out of it and keep myself up at nights. I mean, I'm even even uh getting prepared for a um a message to on Wednesday this week uh from 2nd Corinthians talking about Paul, and he talks about all these things that he essentially failed in, where it was getting beaten by rods, stoned, you know, uh gotten shipwrecked multiple times, which man, you don't want to travel travel on a ship with that guy. Like that's not not a good good sign. Um but then one of the things he includes in there is, and have I not, you know, stayed up with watchings and worryings and stuff like that, as though that was part of the same struggle or um affliction that that he that he that he faced. And so I think when we look at letting Jesus fight our battles for us, part of it is just having confidence in him that he loves us. Because ultimately a lot of times where our worry comes from is God doesn't love us and I'm not good enough.
SPEAKER_00And I think it's also having the faith that good will come from it. And that gets into the whole theology of suffering and it gets into the theology of dealing with trials. Um, but that's why we're told to count it all joy when we face those trials. It's not because it's fun and it's not because it's easy, it's because we can see past that of what God is gonna do in us and through us as we navigate through that trial with him and through that season of suffering. But I do want to encourage those that maybe find themselves in a battle. It's okay to fight, you should fight in those battles. The point is you don't fight alone. That's the picture of this world. The good news is that one day pain's gonna be removed and there will be no more battles to fight. And that's what we see happening right there at the beginning in Revelation 19, that Jesus is coming to remove pain and all forms of of sin from this earth. Uh, and that's why we just got to follow Jesus and he just takes care of it himself. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so going on to one of the ways that Jesus does take care of this, you know, we we talk about the affliction of his wrath upon uh upon those who are left at this point, the the ones who are gathered at uh Armageddon, and you talks about the kings of the earth and their armies. And so, you know, Stephen, you had a question about this to the to the nature of wrath. Um so let's hit let's hit that one first before we talk about hell. So Yeah, yeah, Stephen.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so there's this idea, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily my my kind of concept of belief, but um I was doing some reading on incompatibil incompatibilism, which is kind of a weirdism there, Stephen. It's a very bigism. I can't even say the word. Um but it's this idea of the free will in the afterlife, and if there is free will in the afterlife, then um is that because like is the purpose of his wrath like a secondary purpose to make us not want to sin or utilize that free will in the wrong way? And would it like scare us out of doing that kind of idea?
SPEAKER_00I don't think God's trying to scare us straight. I think I think that's uh important for us to establish. Like I don't think even in our salvation today, that's why I don't mind preaching wrath or hell, because ultimately you don't get saved from being scared of God. You get saved through repentance of your sin and faith in his saving work, saying, Oh wow, he saved a wretched sinner like me. It's coming to that understanding. It's not just because, well, hell's hot and forever's a long time. Of course, that's a sober-minded reality that we have to understand, but no one just gets scared into God. They love God because God first loved them. Um, so to go to though to the future, to the eternal aspect of free will, free will is obviously a whole can of worms of a topic anyway, of you know, what is that, what does that agency look like for us to have this agency to choose? I do believe we have an agency to choose. Uh I believe that's put established all the way right there in the garden with Adam and Eve. But then when you get to the future, the question you're basically asking is, can we choose to sin still in the future? I know theologically there will be no more sin in the future because Revelation chapter 21 tells us that. So sin and death shall be no more. So do we have the agency to do so? I don't know, but will we do it? No, because the Bible tells me so. But I would also say this: even if we had the agency still in our glorified state to make a choice, one, the Bible tells us we won't do so, and I trust the Bible. But the question is, why won't we choose to do so? It's because now sin is removed from us, because now we become like him. And the reason why we make bad choices is because of sin that we have every day. And when that sin's removed and we see Christ in his full glory and we've been made like him, we will not make sinful choices anymore. It just will not happen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and there's an interesting book that C.S. Lewis wrote that was similar to this topic called The Great Divorce. And it kind of uh to me, it kind of encapsulates part of the way this is. Now, I wouldn't recommend it ultimately as theology because it's a fiction book and um and he admits that. But one of the one of the basic premises of the church of the book is that the choices that people would have made in life, they're gonna make an eternity as well. That we we try to separate well, once I know better in heaven, then I wouldn't make that decision again. Realistically, it's either you lay your lay yourself down to God or you don't, or you stand in rebellion against him. And you see both of those here. There's nobody standing in between the rampaging army of heaven and the rampaging army of hell that's that's here coming coming at each other at uh Armageddon. And so, I mean, ultimately, I think one of the things we have to understand is that in this life, you have you have the ability to make a choice, and why would you choose differently in the afterlife? In fact, um Jesus even directly says this in a parable where he's talking about uh la this man named Lazarus who dies, and a rich man who dies, Lazarus goes to heaven, the rich man goes to hell, and the rich man says, Can you go and if you send an angel to my brothers, then maybe they'll avoid this place. And the angels respond, or no, Abraham's response is they have the law and the prophets. If they didn't believe them, then they wouldn't believe even if an angel came to them and and spoke the truth. So ultimately, when we look at this this idea of free will in heaven, it becomes kind of a non-starter because we've already exercised it. Exactly. And our souls have already exercised, no matter where on the spectrum you fall with predestination.
SPEAKER_00I take it even one step further. We've exercised it. You know, we chose God, we made that decision. That's ultimately why we got there is we made that decision to receive that free gift of salvation. But I think it's also important to establish the theology that God chose you. Um and there's both of those realities coming true. Of Ephesians chapter one, we're told God chose us to be in him before the foundation of the world. He chose us in Christ, and which I know that also just opens up a whole can of worms of how did God choose me and I choose him. The Bible says both happened. That's my answer to you. Um but the reality is to go back to the original question is when you go to heaven, you are chosen. That's why you're there. You were chosen. And yes, you chose him, you responded to him. So will you choose to fall from heaven or will he choose to let you go? No. Like it's it's impossible. It goes against the very nature of your presence.
SPEAKER_03Not to mention that we're also at that point in his presence and in awe of him. Exactly. In a new way than we've ever been.
SPEAKER_00The choice has already been made. I guess that's my point.
SPEAKER_01Well, and one point that I want to make here, because we we've talked about in previous uh episodes the reality that that God's wrath and his kindness and justice are the same thing, that there's not two different decisions that he's making, it's one decision, and based on where you fall on the spectrum is where you're getting, you know, the brunt of it. I mean, you that's very clear here, depending on what side of the white horse you're on. Um so question that I have do we because you made that statement earlier about being able to talk about hell and talk about wrath and and things like that, um, would you say that the elimination of fear of God also eliminates our ability to have wonder and awe of him? Do you think that in the the modern the modern culture as we talk about what worship is and where where Big C church is, if for the the sectors of the church that have eliminated the idea of the fear of God, do you think we've also eliminated our ability or our comprehension to be able to have wonder and awe at him?
SPEAKER_00We've certainly limited it. I don't know if it's eliminated it, but I would say it's limited it because what people like to do is stand in wonder of the things they like about God. Like, I mean, in other words, like, you know, some people like to stand in wonder of God out in the creation, seeing all the things, uh, or they like to stay stand in wonder over the message of love, but to your point, it's a buffet, it's a it's a buffet that they're trying to choose which parts they're trying to to pull from his well and I I wouldn't argue that's even wonder though at that point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I would argue that's just admiration or um you know, aweshucks I like that. I mean that's not the same thing as wonder or awe.
SPEAKER_00No, I would agree with you, and it's it it's definitely not orthodox Christianity. I mean that's that's kind of my point. I scope but I think we're both trying to say the same thing. I'm thinking more so in a cultural context of of people, but as far as within believers, I I would agree with you, you have to have the full scope because you ultimately all these things bring us to awe in him as you see his eternal love, but you also see his eternal wrath, and you see who he is, and you see his uh glory going back full circle to that word of his perfection and how that's demonstrated through creation, but how that's also demonstrated through his plan of redemption, of both salvation and judgment. And so I I would agree with you if you don't understand who he is and what he's done, you can't have true wonder. Um and then if you don't have true wonder, I would agree you won't fear him. I think you're probably right on that.
SPEAKER_01And what what spurs that on to me is just the the idea you see elsewhere in the Bible where it says the fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom. Yeah. I mean, we like we we often teaching this, we need to soften that a little bit to talk well then what he really means is reverence, don't not be afraid of God. But you know, healthy fear is actually a good thing. Like, you know, again, not to quote C.S. Lewis too much in this, but you have the the quote about the character Aslan in the books of Narnia, about what his nature is when one of the one of the kids asks, is he safe? And the the uh character answers, Well, no, he's not safe, but he's good. And I think when we look at you consider what really what wonder and awe is, is there it has to be a capacity of understanding what this thing can actually do. Um, you know, it's not just sitting back and saying, Oh, there's a nice pretty paint paint painter of nature. It's dang it, if I fell on fall in this canyon, I'm gonna be a dead, I'm gonna be dead. Like, I mean, that there this uh or I see a bear running at me, isn't that majestic? I need to get in my car.
SPEAKER_00Well, and that's why also when God reveals himself in his glory in the Old Testament and New Testament, the first response usually is fear. Like to your point, it's not them all running to him for this big old hug, you know, where they're just like, you know, mushy feeling like equals. It's like, no, you're different. You're you're full of glory, and I'm fearful. That's why there's always that association of the thunder and of the lightning and of the clouds and all the supernatural that you see all going back to the old testament, to Sinai, to even in the throne room when you start seeing those things in Revelation 4 and 5. So I I agree with you when you when you look to who God is, there is a healthy, terrifying picture that that he wants us to see. And uh and we love him. And the good news is he's for us. That's the point, is that you don't have to reduce who he is to also understand that he's that he's for us. Um praise God that he's for us. He has so much power and he uh and our natural response is fear, but he grabs us by the hand and invites us into his home. That's the idea.
SPEAKER_01I mean, uh as Paul says that it's a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of a l of a living God. I mean it's um you know, again, uh you it makes more sense that I want to be on his team rather than on the other one. Yeah. And you know, I and the reason why I bring it up is I think that for a lot of us, our ability to worship could be made so much better if we were to if we were to approach worship with the idea of of what real reverence is, not uh because again, we get to what real re what people consider reverence to be, uh it's being boring and being quiet and not not expressing emotion, and that's not what reverence is. Reverence is falling down as though dead because you because of the comparison of your sin to his righteousness um and to his holiness. So anyway, I that's something that strikes me in this passage and struck me throughout um the book of Revelation. Um so also what happens here in verse 19 is we have the beginning of of the care of beginning of the end for the bad guys. So you have uh the beast and the prophet subjected to live torture, which will be the the millennium by being thrown into what's called the lake of fire. Now, we we've talked before, I don't know if we've talked about this, I think we've talked about this on the podcast about the different uh versions of what hell looks like. And so, Jonathan, do you see this lake of fire that smells like sulfur? So I love I love that also, the fact that John John's like, also it stinks. Like we're just gonna kick them all the down. Uh but is it is it the same same thing as that as what what these others that would already be uh dead and in hell would be experiencing, do you think?
SPEAKER_00So in in Revelation, what we see is there's a contrast of there's the the present reality of both heaven and hell. Heaven and hell exist today, and those are present realities that when someone dies, Hebrews chapter 9, verse 27, it's appointed for man to die once, then judgment, and we do go to one of two places, heaven or hell. Our souls go there immediately. Our bodies are in the ground, our souls go to one of two destinations. But what you see in the book of Revelation is one, you're gonna see a resurrection, we're actually gonna see that next week, of both the believer and the unbeliever. Uh, and then you see an eternal destination uh that is still we would call heaven and hell, but it's heaven and hell in a final form. So on the hell topic, we see it first, and it's and it's communicated as a lake of fire. And so the idea being that yes, people that reject Christ today are in hell when they die, but one day what we're gonna see next week after the great white throne judgment is they will join what we saw of the Antichrist, the false prophet, in what's known as this lake of fire.
SPEAKER_01I've got a bad joke. So that would you dare say the false prophet and the antichrist are warming up hell for everybody. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00My goodness. Oh my gosh. All right. There it was. The good news on the other side of that though, because that's all scary, you know, to hear the bad side. Scary to hear the bad joke. And I do think it's hilarious that you brought up sulfur too. I didn't even think about that. Like if hell wasn't already hot and horrible, it's gonna stink today. I hadn't thought about that way. But you have the lake of fire, and what we're gonna see is the the contrast that's gonna come here in chapter 21 when you get the new Jerusalem. You get the new heavens and the new earth. And so we won't talk about that too much right now because we're not there yet. But that's but that's the idea is that there is this uh final version of hell, lake of fire, but there's gonna be a final version of heaven, and that's gonna be this new Jerusalem that that John sees coming down in in Revelation 21.
SPEAKER_01And so one thing, kind of kind of skipping ahead here, I think it's I think it's in of note that the two that get thrown into the lake of fire are and we've we've we've talked about this earlier on the podcast, the idea of the um infernal trinity. This is only two of the three members. So at this point, Satan, the the the dragon, has not been thrown in yet. Now that's gonna happen there right at the beginning of chapter 20, which means you've got to tune in next week to hear what happens there. But uh, it is interesting that you do have these kind of things happening on a timeline, also, that af that there is an after Armageddon, something is gonna happen. Um, and so I think for us uh there there there is this this this idea that man, is this horrible battle gonna be the end of all things? Nah, it's not the end of all things, it's just a milestone on the way, just like everything else in history. In fact, the I would argue that even Armageddon is not the center of history, the center of history happened back on the cross.
SPEAKER_02I agree.
SPEAKER_01That the power by which Christ is defeating all this, and I guess realistically, the the reality that these people are following along behind him is dependent on what happened on the cross. And so, I mean, for Jesus, he could have done this all on his own. It's not like the the the people in white are fighting anybody, they're there by his grace. And so when we look when you get to this part of Revelation, we tend to think, oh man, this is a center where everything is happening and this is, you know, the all the end of all of it. It's like now, really, the beginning and the end are encapsulated in what happened on the cross, and everything else is a playing out of that. Um, and that as we walk in this this spirit this world, we understand that there is a story to come that we can't even comprehend the end of.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think you brought up an important point there within that story, because you you said that he could have done it himself, and that's a hundred percent right. And that that is the truth going all the way back to Genesis. You know, Genesis, when you see the fall of mankind, and even before that, what's inferred is the fall of Satan, he could have just defeated Satan right then and been done with him. Uh, but God had this plan that he wanted a people for himself. And even when Satan tried to uh tried to poison that plan, God said, I'm not done. And so that's really the beautiful picture you see of redemption is that he could have done it all by himself, but he's invited us to be with him. And and that's really where this whole story is culminating in Revelation 21 and 22, is that we are with him at that point. And then the dragon's gone, death is no more, and things are the way he wanted them to be. And so it's a beautiful reminder though, as you look through the story of redemption, what you said so key, that he could have done it by himself. He didn't need us. That's the whole point of redemption. He does not need me, he does not need you. Uh, God is perfectly uh satisfied in his in the triune state, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He has no needs, he does not need me, but he wants me. And that should lead you to worship as you consider that on whoever's listening, that he doesn't need you, but he wants you. Uh, and that should lead you once again to worship him and thank you, thank him for it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and we do hope that as you're listening to the series, you may you may be hearing all us talking about this book of Revelation and be skeptical about a lot of the things that are that we're talking about. But I I mean, and especially as we're talking about, you know, gorge bird birds gorging on flesh and um on robes dipped in blood and stuff like that. I mean, recognize that again, you are loved at the base of who you are, not by anything you could have ever done, but based on the the love of the one who created you, you are loved. And our hope, I know I'm speaking for Stephen and for Jonathan on this, is that we we hope that you would receive that, that you would find yourself on the other side of this white horse, that you would find yourself riding in with him in that in this victory lap. Um because this is what you're created for. Like it I mean, you he did not create you to be destroyed, but rather to be to receive redemption. And and friend, that no matter where you are in life, no matter what decisions you've made, no matter what doubts you've had, he still wants you. He still and he still died on your behalf. The center of history is still there. And you're there is this open invitation. And I think that's that that's probably where we'll close today because I think one of the power, probably one of the biggest powers that we see in the midst of this is that that first name that he's called there, faithful and true. That we that we understand that everything that's happening in the book of Revelation is happening because all of God's promises come true. Um and to me, that idea of the faithfulness of God, the steadfast love of God, it just it when we talk about things that should hold us in awe, that should hold you in awe. I mean I mean it just it there's not much to say about that. But so Jonathan, Stephen, anything anything else before we before we go today?
SPEAKER_03Um I mean, I think Jonathan put it really well in a sermon when he said he was talking about the first coming of Christ and that it's what you do because of that first coming that decides what happens to you in the second coming. Um and that Jesus' hope is that we follow him.
SPEAKER_00It is, and you said it, Matt, but John 3 17, for God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. And so as you look to a picture of ultimately judgment, it's just a good reminder Jesus came in that first coming, Stephen, so that we might not be condemned, but so that we might be saved through him. So uh we pray that you have been saved through him, and if not, uh we'd love to talk about that with you somehow.
SPEAKER_01All right, friends. Well, thank you for joining us today on the Revelation Director's Cut. Uh we do we do hope that you would uh join us again next week for uh chapter 20 as we can keep the keep this fun rolling on. Uh also note that here at Austin Baptist Church we are we do have this uh sermon series going on. You can find it on our YouTube channel. What's our YouTube channel called, Stephen? It's really complicated.
SPEAKER_03Our YouTube channel?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um Austin Baptist Church. Yeah, there you go. Really catchy title. Really hard to remember.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, Austin Baptist Church is our YouTube channel. And also, if you've if you're if you're jumping in this series late and wondering, man, what's all this other stuff they're talking about and referring to? As luck would have it, all those podcasts are backed up in the archive. So go check it out, take some time on that. And as always, if you have questions uh or comments about the series, please direct message us at Austin Baptist Church on Instagram or through info at AustinBaptistchurch.com. But for Jonathan Spencer, Stephen Vaughn, and myself, thanks for joining us today on the Citizen ATX podcast, and we'll see you next time.