Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Revelation_Directors Cut: All Things New
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For centuries humanity has been obsessed with creating stories of characters with the magical power to fix anything with the move of a wand or the snap of a finger. Stories like: Disney's "Fantasia", the old cartoon "Popeye the Sailor Man", or even "Harry Potter". While these are all fictional stories that every human could only dream of, the story of God creating a "New Heaven" and a "New Earth" are very much real! Join Matt, Stephen, and Jonathan as they discuss the new creation found in Revelation 21.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. We're glad that you're joining us as we continue the Revelation Director's Cut series. Guys, we are on chapter 21. We are almost to the end of the Book of Revelation. If you've not been following along with us every week at Austin Baptist Church, we have been following along with the sermons that are coming from our stage as we make this journey of understanding this book talking about the end of all things. And so today with me in this uh uh studio, we have Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan.
SPEAKER_03Howdy, Matthew.
SPEAKER_01And we also have Stephen Vaughn. Hello, Stephen. Hello. And so today we finally get to uh the piece where Satan is finally gone, right? Like this is a pretty good, pretty good time to be. I think, and generally, I think when people are sitting in these sermons, the sweat stops a little bit from where from where we were in the chapter before. And if you want to hear a lot of talk about hell, that last week is one for you. You will enjoy that about sulfur and stinky and dark and all the fun things about the lake of fire. This week, we're going to talk about new heavens and new earth. And so, Jonathan, first question that I want to ask as we're hitting here in Revelation chapter 21. Does time come to an end here? Like when we're considering the measures by which we interact with our world and our reality, time is one, I think we can all agree it's a pretty major one. So is time continue here as we hit Revelation 21?
SPEAKER_03Time as we know it today ends for sure, in the sense of the old heavens, the old earth are gone. So time and its current construct and understanding, as we operate, it's gone. Those things will have passed away. But then there's the new heavens and new earth. And the question then is is time still exist? And really to add to that, you know, the idea of space, matter, and time, you know, these things that build our universe as we know it, do they exist in the future cosmos that we will know? That's kind of a complicated answer. And I th I think there's differing viewpoints on that. Um, I it was interesting reading things, you know, is there actually going to be time in heaven? Now we will last for we will exist forever. So there's this eternal aspect to us that obviously we will go on forever and ever. Amen. But at the same time, we are finite beings, I believe. We're not, we are not the infinite. God is the infinite. We are created finite beings and we will have created resurrected bodies that that will have matter and we will operate in space. So then one might assume then, well, is there some understanding of time? So it's an interesting thought. Um, time will continue, though, forever if there is an idea of time. Yeah. So it'd be different at the least, but also it gets into the bigger realm than without time. If time does not exist, the question then is, well, then does that make us infinite? And one would argue theologically, we cannot be infinite because we're not God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and there's some there's some definitions there. I mean, you can think about what time is more than just the ticking of a clock, but the degrade of the physical degrade of the universe is really what we're measuring because you have um celestial bodies rotating around each other and things like that. Um it's it springs to mind um one thing that we need to be a aware of, and you listener, you be aware of, is this is a major area where Orthodox Christianity parts from Mormonism and the Latter-day Saints, uh, because that their belief is that when you go that into the afterlife, you become gods. Like you you are gods yourselves, and then you would have your own planets and things like that. That is not the that's not the picture that we're getting here. Really, we're seeing completed humanity as as I believe it, is you know, humanity as we were always meant to be. Um and so with that, you know, the the question then becomes all right, do you accept that time is disconnected from degrade? Like I think that's where where we really come to on that. And here in a second, we're gonna talk about the sun and the and the stars and things like that and what what is there. Uh, but the first thing we have to address here is the fact that that it says in 21 that there's a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and first earth had passed away. I mean, so that they're they're gone. And I mean, even if you when you look in chapter 20 with the great white throne truck judgment, it makes the statement that uh in verse 11, from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. So ostensibly at this point, the physical reality, matter itself, is either well, is done away with, and that there's and then there is a new matter, a new physical reality that we we now are in. Um so your your feeling on that would be that there is something, at least like time of of change or of the thing.
SPEAKER_03The thing with time, just staying on that, not getting to the matter, because we'll get into matter, I guess, next. But with time, I was reading on that. There's just some things that you have to think through because in heaven, it's it's what are we going to be doing in heaven? There's things that are described in the Bible. Uh most of those things are also measured or understood in time. For instance, even singing and worship. How can you worship without tempo, without meter, without uh some of those basic things that we understand actually create music? Um, even in the book of Revelation, now granted it was present heaven, not new heavens, new earth. But when you look into the book of Revelation, like in the Revelation 7, it's describing heaven that they are worshiping day and night. Time's mentioned in chapter 8 before the trumpets blow, we're told heaven's silent for about a half an hour. So there's like these ideas of time that are all throughout the Bible that are explained in present-day heaven, but this gets into the gray area then of the new heavens, new earth. Will there be some semblance or understanding of time to bring order, in other words, to the to the universe that we'll exist in? Yeah. Um, that's the debate, I guess, that has to be had.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I mean, you one thing I will say too is that I think it's pretty clear that the the first heaven, the one that's present happening right now. I mean, time definitely is happening there. When you look at Lazarus, the story of Lazarus and the poor or Lazarus, Lazarus, the poor man, and the rich man, they're able to see what's going on in each other's areas. And the and to your point, there's the how long, oh Lord, and uh questions of that nature. Um I think the the biggest problem for me is that idea of of degrade. I mean, you even talk you talk about the physical universe. What is it that that when we talk about actual laws of physics, uh the second one uh or the second law of thermodynamics says that all matter is tending toward entropy. Um and so that that and that is metered by time itself. Now, you can get into Einstein's theories and things like that of relativity and all that, but ultimately that is that question of what is it that defines time? Is it cause and effect or is it the passing of something that we can't quite put our finger on? Right. I mean, I I I will agree that there's probably gonna be something like time that we understand, the cause and effect. If I if I'm working and I do this, then this will happen.
SPEAKER_03Because heaven also talks about rhythms that we'll live in. Like if it's understood that we'll work, you know, for instance, in in the world, in the new heavens and the new earth, which I believe that's true, that that we will work one day. Work also, you know, is understood through the process of a rhythm of time, of things moving. So I I agree with you, Matt. I think I think there has to be some idea of time. I just don't think it's the present-day understanding of what we see it as.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And even like this is one of those questions that really boggles a lot of people's minds. Like even uh a lot of atheists that I have talked to have brought up the simulation hypothesis and like the idea that we're all on a simulation, and when you pass away, you're into a new part of the simulation, you need to relive again. And I know there's like Indian cultures that believed in like uh reincarnation, that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so this is absolutely not reincarnation. And I do think it's important for us to make that distinction. And we've done a podcast before talking about some of those basic differences between uh Eastern and Western religion. And in fact, if you listen or want to go back and listen to that, it's part of the what was called the coexist series that we did probably about a year ago. Um But the our can the the Christian and Western conception of reality is linear, it's not it is not cyclical. That um in Eastern religion, there is no beginning, there is no end, it just keeps going and going and going and going and going until um really the only linear aspect of it is until a being ceases to exist. And in and in the conception of the way that God created the universe, the goal is and the end is not ceasing from existence, it's having fullness of existence. And we see that here. Um you know, another question to this do we sleep when we're in the new heaven? I mean, because we we apparently don't get tired, so why would we sleep? Um unless we just really like sleeping and have a good old time doing that. I mean, it it's it seems to me that they probably won't because there's no night anymore either.
SPEAKER_03And this gets into the splitting of hairs because it says there's no night, so absolutely it's that comes actually later on in the passage. But but there's also I was reading a commentary uh in one book in particular, I'll even just plug it out there. It's called uh Heaven, so it's an easy title to know, but it's written by Randy Alcorn. If you want to read a book that just has pretty much a systematic theology on heaven, you know, it's gonna give you the most information you can have probably on that in one book. It's Randy Alcorn's Heaven book. And he gives a lot of insight in there with a lot of Bible and also a lot of you know speculative insight. It's him measuring based off of scriptures, his understanding. Uh and so uh so he speaks onto a lot of these topics. What was your question though? I was giving the plug, I got derailed. You were talking about his topics.
SPEAKER_01We were still we were still talking oh, night and day.
SPEAKER_03Night and day, thank you. So so he was pointing out, you know, it says, and he's correct, I believe, that when it speaks that there's no longer the sun, the need for the sun or the moon, and it says that, but it doesn't necessarily say explicitly that they don't exist, he pointed out, which was an interesting take, because his point was, this was his position, was that the new Jerusalem, it says, you know, God will be shining his light there and that there will be no need for the sun. So obviously there's a radiant presence of the Lord that's there in that new Jerusalem that's greater than the sun, is what that's communicating. But his point is in the new heavens and the new earth outside of the new Jerusalem, perhaps there is still a rhythm with sun, moons, and some of those things. So it made room for the for the conversation, I guess is my point, where I don't know if it's crystal clear either way in some of those rhythms with what we see.
SPEAKER_01And it certainly is. And we have to write we have to recognize that Revelation 21 is not a scientific text. It's not designed to be, and it's not that they're not really that concerned with the physics of the thing. But where we're I think the word that we have to to wrap our minds around here is is what preservation looks like, right? Um I wrote down on my notes, um is the previo preservation of the firmament redemption or recreation, right? Uh I would be in the camp of recreation because you when whenever Jesus says, Behold, I'm making all things new, um, you know, I think I think we can fall into a trap of God just basically taking materials that are there and then just making them better. Um and I I don't know. I mean, when I when I look at the resurrected body, I mean there there's that question of, okay, and this is this is one of the reasons why people want to be buried instead of cremated. Of, well, whenever you rise, if you're cremated, how is he going to bring your body back together? And it's like, well, if you if you're if you're buried in your dust, what how are you gonna bring the dust back together? I mean, it it's it's not based off of our physical rules, it's based on the command of God that let there be light, let there be people, pop back up out of the grave and let's let's judge you.
SPEAKER_03Well, and the answer to that question is that he made us from dust, so he can make us again from dust all over again, in the sense of if you're cremated as well. But but I think I I fall on the redemption side that I believe that it's a salvaged heavens and earth, if you will. Um doesn't mean that it's just the same stuff, just a little bit upgraded. I I see it, I see it still as a transformed newness. And I think that the reason I say that I think it's a redeemed versus replaced uh is because ultimately that's what God does in our salvation. Like, I mean, he takes an old heart of stone and he gives us a new heart of flesh. And that word new is kinos, that's there in in Revelation 21, it's the same word that we talk about with the gospel in 2 Corinthians 5, 17, that if anyone's in Christ, he's a chinos, a new creation. The old is gone, the new is come. So my old life is gone, the Bible says. I'm a complete new person, yet I still look the same. There's a there's a there's a part of me that's still there that that God's given me a new heart. And then to your point with the resurrected body, my old body will be buried and become dust, but then my essence will return. I'll still be Jonathan again in my new glorified body, but I will look different, but there will be a connection still to who I was.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, and there is a preservation of the personality there that they seems to be clearly there in every anytime you see the saints interacting in heaven, it is a that it is their own personal actions that are happening here. But the um uh one thing that that springs to mind to me is in the idea of talking about that the old self being crucified and and killed, like you know, this is a pretty major difference again between Protestants and Catholics, where there is this belief of the the old man getting this um injection of grace to become healthy, but you got to keep getting regular doses of grace in order to stay healthy. In Protestantism, the way that we understand the Bible to say is that you know, that there's no amount of good works or or you know di uh dispensation of grace that will make you well. It's like you're not sick, you're dead. Right. And and something that's dead does not get uh well, it it doesn't get better.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I guess I wouldn't call this the new heavens and new earth better, because it is dead. The whole thing with God does is he takes things dead and he gives them new life. That's the idea that our heart right now, it was dead, I've been made alive in Christ. My body will be dead, then it'll be made new in Christ. And I think this world is dead. I mean, it's dying. It's and then it really will die as we've been talking about as we get into the tribulation period, and then he'll take that dead earth and I believe make something new out of it.
SPEAKER_01And this is also a really good argument for why post-millennialism is not not cogent, because I mean it it believes that things are gonna get better until they're paradise. And clearly here at the back end of Revelation, everything's gonna be gloomy. Yeah, it it flees away and there's nothing left. One of the things specifically that that the Revelation writer talks about there in 21 that was gone was the sea, right? And so it's kind of an interesting thing, and all the people who live in uh live in the islands are like, huh, how about that, man? There's no ocean anymore. So what what's the deal here? Why uh why is the sea gone? I mean, why why specifically that and not some other geographic landmark that that the book of Revelation meant to say? Um and did it did it go when heaven, the uh the earth and the sky disappear there in chapter 20.
SPEAKER_03Well, first of all, I want to clarify that I do think there's gonna be water in heaven, because it even speaks of water literally later down the passage, it speaks of living water that's offered to us. And then in the 22nd chapter, it speaks of a uh of a river going alongside this tree of life. Which by the way, in the 22nd chapter, it also says that that tree yields fruit every month. So that's also a measurement of time, which is an interesting point as a side note. But but all that being said, water will exist. The question is will seas, you know, the the salt water, the three-quarters of our current earth, does it exist? And there's different opinions on that. You know, why does it come up there and why is there contention over it? One, because it seems unfathomable for us to think that this world would not have sea, you know, seawater in there. Um, but also people could understand that to be symbolic because the sea also carries great symbolism, both biblical and extra-biblical literature. Uh biblically, it it speaks towards chaos. The beast came out of symbolically the sea in Revelation chapter 13. Uh, same thing, ancient civilizations were terrified of the sea. They they they saw that as their enemy and they saw it as an opponent and adversary because it brought death and chaos. And so some see it as symbolic versus literal. I think there's also room for the interpretation that it's both, you know, that it is literal, but also there's that symbolic truth that chaos will likewise be gone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, and I'll tell you, I guess where where I come on it is um uh the way that the sea the what a sea is, is that it's the depositing place for all the water, right? It's the terminal. The reason it's salty is because it's not going anywhere, and all the minerals, all the degrade gets flushed down into the ocean. So, like, where does all the poop in the world go? To the ocean. So really what what I think we're seeing here, because they this pulls in another question, do the laws of physics still apply if there's no night or day anymore? Um, you know, i i if if the regular rhythm of things has been disrupted and that the death and degrade is no longer there and there is this river flowing, basically the way that I the way that I would uh understand it to be from a uh what I I would say scientific, I don't think it's really scientific, it's probably my best understanding of it, is that when we have this new creation, it's no longer a closed system, it's an open system, and that this this river that flows, that it flows on and on and on and never ends. Um part of Alcorn's argument from the book Heaven, um where he comes from, the reasoning for preservation is kind of it to me a little bit hard to hard to uh grasp because it talks about, you know, well, sunsets are there, and it's like, well, there's no sun, why we won't have sunsets anymore. And like, but that's a that's an argument from the existence we live in now. Yeah. It makes the same statement about the sea. It's like, well, what's gonna happen to all the coral reefs and all the and all the fish and stuff like that? And it's like, well, why can't why couldn't they be in other bodies of water that are created at that time?
SPEAKER_03I mean, it you know, I think the argument for some, and it doesn't have to be sea, but I think there has to be water, and because ultimately also I believe there will be animals, wildlife, plants, all these things. Because if all this was part of God's good creation, and if the picture of of the Bible is from one garden to another, which is one way you could summarize it in a sense, it that that this was God's plan was to have water, to have his glory displayed through fish, through different types of species, birds in the air, animals of the land. And you see, God even preserved that even through the flood, that he preserved those those entities because they reflected his glory. So a lot of people then bring up that point of, you know, well, where will the fish be? And there has to be fish, birds, animals. And I would actually agree with that. Now, does it have to exist in salt water, like you're saying, with a huge, massive ocean? No, I don't think so. I think it could be other bodies of water, but I do think there'll be fish. I do think one thing to bring up why the sea as we know it will no longer exist is also what the sea does, is it divides, divides people, and really ultimately it's a reminder of God's wrath. If you really point back towards the flood, I know the rainbow reminds us that God won't pour out that flood water again, but if you look to the waters of the earth, really that is one reason people I believe have been terrified of it for millennia, is because it was a sign of God's wrath. Really, ultimately, through that wrath that came that that flooded the earth, separated people. Um, and so I think there's part of that too, that that he's removing the barriers and the memories of the old life and the old things have passed, and so it's not gonna be there. And no longer will people be separated across these oceans. Instead, God's people will have access to him and access to each other. So it would make sense for the sea to be gone.
SPEAKER_01Well, and there's the the beautiful, the beautiful statement that's made that behold, the dwelling place of God is now with man. He will dwell with them and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. Um and so another question that that comes to mind with this new heavens, this new earth, this combination of the two, the two things of the new Jerusalem now being there. Um what kind of what kind of corporal presence do we think God will have in the new heaven? I one of the things that springs to my mind is the account from uh Genesis, whenever it talks about how God what how God was routinely walking with Adam and Eve in the garden, and even to the extent of saying in the cool of the day. And so it's like, why would that I mean that's obviously more for Adam and Eve than it was for for him. But you know, what kind if God is going to be um with man and his dwelling place is going to be there, and you have this interaction, even to the extent where he's like wiping the tears away from our eyes, what kind of corporal corporeal presence should we expect of God?
SPEAKER_03It involves Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I believe. Um, like today we walk on this earth with the with the Holy Spirit living inside of us, and we can speak to the Father through the mediation of God the Son. And so we have a relationship with our triune God. But I believe in the new heavens and new earth we will have the presence of our triune God with us in a real full way. Um now, how does that flesh out? I think there's a few different pictures you see there in the passage. It gives us a little bit of an idea. You see light, you know, that's coming. In first John chapter one, verse five, we're told God is light and in him is no darkness at all. So even in the creative order, you know, God spoke light into this world to ultimately serve as a reflection of his own glory, but he is light. So his presence, you see actually right there in the new heavens and the new earth and the new Jerusalem, it's the light of God that is lighting up the world. So everywhere you go, he is with you. I think you're correct on God the Son. I think there will be uh access that we will have to him. Right now we have access to him through prayer and Hebrews 4, he's on his throne of grace, hearing us, ready to give mercy and grace, but he will physically be before us, and I believe we will be able to have access to him. And likewise, I think the spirit still will walk with us. I I still think the spirit, uh, there'll be a a uh presence of the Holy Spirit everywhere we go. Um now, how does all that functionally work day to day, hour by hour? I think there's some mystery, but I think the key to catch from it is that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will all be accessible and we'll see uh our God uh as three in one.
SPEAKER_01And I think it's important for us to recognize. Too that God is not changed in any of this. He's the same as He's always been. We're the ones who change and our percep even our perception of reality. And so, I mean, to me, this is another you made that statement earlier of even in heaven, we're still going to be some measure of finiteness. And we're not going to be everywhere all the time. He's everywhere all the time. Exactly. He's the basis by which anything exists. And so with that, you know, I do think our understanding and our perception of the Spirit is going to be much more apparent to us than it is now. Because I mean it makes that statement in the in the New Testament that uh it's like we see through a uh a dirty mirror now. Um but then we'll be known, we'll know even as we are known, and that's going to change our perception of who he is, where he is, and what he's doing. Um, which is gonna be cool. I mean, it's gonna be pretty neat that uh the Holy Spirit will be there with us and well will we'll will be observable with us more than we even know it now. Yeah. Um all right, so uh one question, um and you know, we're we really shouldn't talk about uh what we're going to what we're going to talk about on here because we're you know but we're there's a question about reproduction that I have on here.
SPEAKER_03You want to use that dirty word sex? Yeah, talking about it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah because I mean that there is a question here. You have people that are in heaven, right? And is there going to be gender in heaven? Will there be reproduction in heaven? I mean, because you know we look back, if we're looking back into Genesis, um, be fruitful and multiply is one of the things, one of the admonitions that God gives as a basis of mankind. It's the be fruitful and multiply and then have dominion over the earth. Um and so what what's the situation gonna be there whenever we whenever we approach whenever we are in heaven? Is reproduction gonna be a thing that's there? Is gender gonna be something that's there?
SPEAKER_03I'll start with gender. Gender, yes, we are I am a man. There are women that are made women. We're told God made us male and female. So uh that's part of God's creative design. We are his creation, like you said, we're finite creatures. Um, we don't change our essence of who we are. God made me to be a man, he made women to be women, which is a good reminder for this day and age, but it points back towards the end of time when we're looking at this. I am still who God made me to be. Like I am a man today, I will always be a man, made by God and for God. And so one day when I'm in a glorified body, I will still be Jonathan and I will still be a man resurrected in this body, transformed into a glorified state. But that walking in this new heavens and new earth as a glorified man or woman, we're also told biblically will look different because Jesus says marriage won't exist. Right. Because he was posed that question basically. Definitely that because they all want to know whose wife when we've all been married to this lady, who's who's she gonna be with was the question posed to Jesus and his ministry. He said, none of y'all, you're all getting it wrong because you're not gonna be married in heaven. And so we will all be there, but we're not gonna be married. And if sex was made for marriage, then ultimately that would mean no physical sex as we see it, experience it, know it today, it would not exist in heaven. That's my opinion, I believe.
SPEAKER_01So I mean, if there is reproduction in heaven, it won't be by the means of necessarily sex as we understand it now.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I don't even think there'll be reproduction in the sense of now I do, I think there'll be plants and and animals and things like that. Yes. But as far as within us, we are with him eternally, um, and we are no longer reproducing to fill an earth. Instead, God gave us a new heavens and new earth, and he filled it himself with the redeemed in that sense. And so I don't see us being reproducers of us having marriages and babies. I also don't see us having physical sex in that sense, which that gets into a whole nother conversation because a lot of people are disappointed when you hear that too, that there's no marriage, no sex. Because in this world, you think of sex really as the highest form of pleasure that people experience here on this earth and the ecstasy that comes from that. So people think it's unfathomable. Well, how can heaven be great if there's no sex? Yeah. But it also, I think, is just a sobering reminder to us that of really just the pleasure that will be available in heaven. Um, that that if that pleasure is not there, that means there's something even greater, and it won't even come through a sexual relationship, which is pretty, pretty mind-blowing.
SPEAKER_01And that speaks back to that same conversation from earlier about preservation, that we that we it's very probable that we have no conception of what this is even going to be like. And even when we look at what Paul, Paul's experience is of going up into the heavens, he says, I don't I don't have words to be able to even really describe this. And so I think I think that that's an important thing for us to note on that, that you know, uh I guess where where I where I feel there is a difficulty of understanding is that if we're made in the image of God and then we do some of the same things that God does, then but we are eternal beings at that point, um, or our physical beings are eternal at that point, you know, how would reproduction work in the in any of that? And so, I mean, maybe maybe it will be that it that that reproduction comes by a different method uh of cultivation. But at the same time, we're still not God. So, I mean, we can't make things happen like that.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I think he's added those into his father's house. I think I think he's built his family up, he's adopted us into his home, and now we co-reign and we're co-heirs with him. I do think we're still gonna cultivate, I think, that aspect of our creative order, like we are still gonna do good work, we're still gonna have work, and it'll be fulfilling work and fruitful, and we won't have thorns and thistles anymore. So there still will be an exercise of dominion because we will co-reign with him, and we will also still uh be cultivating in that sense and exercising some form of that creative reflection, like you're saying. Um, but I just don't see us having the family unit. The family unit was the model, the the the marriage was the model of reproduction that God gave to this world. Um, and if there's no marriage anymore in the new heavens, new earth, and that is a change. Suddenly things are different.
SPEAKER_01It's different, yeah. Well, and so let's talk now. Um excuse me, I'm gonna cop. Um let's talk now about the next session section of this chapter that we you really didn't have enough time to be able to deal with in the message. But also, to be frank, it's kind of a an odd piece of piece of engineers love it. Yeah, this is the yeah.
SPEAKER_03They live for that.
SPEAKER_01We're gonna go for the the blueprints now. All right, so first off, I think it's interesting that one of the bull angels is one of the ones that that and that that was bringing the plagues is the one that comes and says, Hey, I got some good news now. I'm real nice now. But it but he comes in and he says, Hey, I'm gonna show you what this looks like now. And then when you proceed from verses nine through essentially 21, you're getting we're given a lot of measurements, we're given a lot of building materials, we're given a lot of orientations here. Um so let's start off here just with a general question. You know, what are the roles of the numbers that are being used in measuring the city here? Because we're given this idea that, well, number one, it makes this the direct statement that the angels got himself a measuring rod, right?
SPEAKER_03And is that is that yeah, well it says measured by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement. So yeah. So it's the same. Yeah, so it's saying, but they're saying these are human numbers, is what they're trying to make sure we know.
SPEAKER_01And so there is a reason there is a reason why specifically God intends to reveal this through John. Otherwise, they wouldn't have included it. Right. Um what so what what do we discern is the purpose here of even measuring any of this? Um and God making it very clear, hey, I want you to understand something about this.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Ross Powell Well, and the measuring and the rod, we have to remember that's already come up in this passage. Remember earlier in this book, I should say, when there was a measuring of the temple, it was that third temple that was being built earlier, I believe it was in Revelation 11, if I remember off the top of my head. And then also Ezekiel saw a measuring of a temple going back to his prophecy. So there's this connection there of measuring what belongs to God. And so that was the idea with the first temple. That was the idea there in that third temple, uh, when it was being measured there in the book of Revelation. And here you see the rod coming out to measure the new Jerusalem. Because we're also told in that same passage there is no temple because God is our temple, his presence is with us. So I think you see an end to that kind of loop there, in other words, where God has historically measured that which is his, and it's been that temple, but now this city and this whole thing is his, and so and he is our temple. We're with him. And the measurement is all about New Jerusalem. That's what it's largely focused on right there. And it's getting our minds around this new uh capital of the new heavens and new earth, which is important for us to see, I think, uh the weight of it because Jerusal Jerusalem's always been the holy city, it's always had the grandeur, it's always had the glory of God reflected there in that place. And what you see is a greater glory, I guess, in this passage, and you see the new heavens, new earth version of Jerusalem, and it's things we can't understand because it's coming from the heavens. It's not a city built here on this earth, it's a city built in heaven and delivered uh with really some unprecedented measurements.
SPEAKER_01Right. And a lot of the a lot of the numbers in here, you know, correspond to the number 12, which we've talked about, uh connects to things like the tribes of Israel, the apostles. Right. Um there is an idea of this completion and this perfect plan of God to cover it cover the whole cover everything. Um but you also have this in a lot of interesting uh gemstones mentioned in here. Um and so for uh well, I guess one question that comes out of it, I mean, why why do are what is the sp uh significance of the specific gems that are mentioned? Because I mean it talks about things like jasper, sapphire, agate, emerald, onyx. I mean, why not uh Alexandrite or um or uh fool's gold, pyrite, you know, things like that? Why why is there any significance to these actual stones being placed into the walls of the the city?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so the the in verses 19 and 20, those twelve jewels, they correspond with the twelve jewels that were engraved into the high priest's uh breastplate when you get into the old testament. And so what you see symbolically with that is the connection point that now this place is for the priesthood of believers, it's for all of us, and you're seeing that we're all one day, we already are a royal priesthood, but one day we will live eternally as those royal priests serving uh the goodwill of the Lord and being a part of his family. Um so I think that's the connection point there is it's showing these precious jewels that were commanded to be used by Israel, and then you see the connection point there that you see the fulfillment of what God was given a little uh glimpse of there in the Old Testament.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you mean thinking about the the nature of work and things like that also, I mean, they these things don't generally just show up. They're they're mind. And so I do think there's an interesting, you know, connection into some of that work there that you they'll they'll still have these building materials that are specific. Uh one question that springs to mind is you know, now there's no pain, there's no death, no mourning, no crying, any anything like that, um, you know, uh is there is there value in heaven? Like is there is there money? Is I mean things like that. I mean, obviously when we talk about precious gemstones, yeah, one of the big reasons we talk about it is because they're real expensive and our and our wives and wives and girlfriends tend to like those things. Yeah. And so what what um what is I mean, is there value or money system or something like that in this New Jerusalem?
SPEAKER_03I think there has to be some form of value because, like you said, there's already showing a valuation in the precious materials. It's been pointed out how beautiful and and uh precious all those things are. But then beyond that, if you get into even concepts of work, for instance, that people are gonna work, the Bible always has a connection of work with wages. And so there's that aspect that then you think, well, is there gonna be wages for this work? Well, if it operates in a way that biblically we've understood that wages go with work, you could argue that that yeah, there might be some money involved out there. But also what you have to keep in mind is Jesus told us to store up treasure in heaven. So there's also that idea that what how I work today not only earns wages right now, but it's gonna earn rewards in heaven, uh, where heaven will be accessible to all the redeemed, but there will be different levels of rewards, which means there'll be different levels of value out there in a system. Yeah, and not based in shame, but uh, you know Yeah, it's a it's a crown is what it is, it's a reward for people.
SPEAKER_01And it made it makes me think about the parable that Jesus tells about the pearl of great price. Because in that in that parable, you know, the short that kind of s uh summarized merchant find uh a pearl merchant goes out and finds a pearl that is the best pearl that he's ever seen. And so what he does is he goes and sells everything he has so he can have that pearl. Um the point being it was less about the vet the numerical value of the money, but of the value of the object itself, its preciousness. And that's what we're seeing here is our precious materials because the value is based in the beauty they exhibit, right? And we and when we talk about what is natural beauty connected to, always it speaks to part of the nature of who God is. And so in it seems to me that in the New Jerusalem, the new heavens and the new earth, value is going to be connected to how do we see God flow and his beauty flow through these things. Um that all of this is a reflection of that very present beauty of who God is.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think what's also beautiful that that disrupts our understanding of value is there will not be envy. There will not be any of those vices that we have because now we see things valuable. If I see somebody with gold, I'll say, ooh, I wish I had that. Yeah, or they don't deserve that. You know, I don't know why they have that. You know, that's what we do is we, because of our sin, we compare ourselves in unhealthy ways. Uh, and then we envy and we want things. There's jealousy, but in heaven, that's a pretty wild thought to think that people will be rewarded at different levels, and we'll see people with more stuff than we have. And we'll be happy for them. And we'll give glory to them, and not only will we be happy for them, we will thank God that they have that and give glory to God for for being so good that he would give that to them, which is just a good reminder as a little preaching right now that would you see people with blessings in the same way, give glory to God that he has don't don't don't blame God that you don't have that. Give glory to God that he gave that to them and thank him for it and bless them with that because that's what we're gonna do in heaven.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I think the closest thing that I could that I could think of to that would be, you know, because there's somebody like Corey Tinboom who did not have much in this life and who suffered in this life, but then thinking about what kind of reward is she gonna have in heaven of for the greatness of the gospel that she showed through her life. I mean, that I I'm I'm legitimate, I as I'm thinking about it, I'm legitimately happy for her. Yeah. I mean, it is this is great. And and um, and so I mean, I do think that definitely changes our spectrum here because it's not it's not we're not trying to earn better things in heaven. Rather, we're just trying to demonstrate we the value is demonstrated in the beauty of God that flows through our lives and the and the things that He He we will have in heaven are gonna be again a reflection of that.
SPEAKER_03And I think it's worth knowing those in heaven that receive those blessings, they will walk in humility with those blessings. They will not then see that as their own doing. They will humbly receive that, which is a good reflection of how can you bring heaven down to earth if God blesses you today. Same thing you walk in humility of it, acknowledging the giver.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's what when you look at the elders constantly falling down and laying their crowns in front of everybody. I mean, val the value in that case is what can be given and laid down, not what can be gained for for yourself. Another picture in here that really strikes me, uh it's a little bit hard to understand, but uh I think that the the basic the basic picture is is mind-numbing a little bit. But the making the statement that the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass, those two things don't make sense. Like I I don't ever think about I mean when you think about gold, the point is it's not transparent, it's gold. Like so how are we supposed to make sense of this? Not and not it, not even that, uh not even just that, but also the statement right before it where it says each of these gates is made by a single pearl. It's like, man, what kind of mollusk made that thing? Like, I mean, then the gate itself is this giant pearl rolling around. Like, how how are we to understand some of these concepts here uh in 21?
SPEAKER_03Well it's to show you that it just comes from God. We can't understand it fully in a sense. Like no one understands a pearl that's hundreds of feet high. You know, that doesn't make sense in our mind. Yeah. You're like, where do they pull that out of the ocean? It's it's not there, you know. That's something God creates for the case. Yeah, the ocean's gone too. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01That's where it is. It was at the bottom of the ocean.
SPEAKER_03Well, and even the same thing of gold, where we think of the purity of gold and we think about you know its value, the more pure it is, but there's a a purity that we don't even understand that that's going to be represented, this transparent glass, you know, that's quite the imagery. Uh where it's speaking towards a preciousness that we can't even understand in a purity that that's in that precious metal that cannot be found here on this earth. And so that's the point. If it makes no sense, that's why Paul says no eye has seen, no ear has heard. Yeah. God has prepared for those who love him, and that's that's the whole point. You haven't seen it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh I guess in that to that idea of God's intelligent designs and all that stuff. Um a nerdy thought that I'm having right now is where it says this this talking about this square or this uh uh cube cube. Uh-huh. And I'm thinking, you know, this per a perfect cube. So it says it's it's length and width and height are all equal. Yeah. In order to get that, you have the golden ratio, which a lot of mathematicians use the golden ratio as a sign of there must be intelligent design. Like it, there's no other possible way it could just happen. So I think that's really cool. That there's like actual little pieces, just like he's already created in this current earth that we live in, and the next earth, there's also pieces that show the glory in you know, just mind-blowing scientific level that he's at.
SPEAKER_01I mean, yeah, yeah. Mathematics, what Galile how is Galileo said it? It was that um mathematics is the is the language by which God wrote the universe. It's an interesting concept. Now, I know some people debate well, is it a cube or is it a pyramid, right? Very few, but there are pyramid folks out there. It's like, you know, I don't I don't know. I mean, it it I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Well, Matt, you know, the aliens made the pyramid.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the aliens made the pyramid.
SPEAKER_03Well, the one connection I will say on that one quick commentary on that, people it could be. I mean, to answer the question, we don't know. Most think cube because it makes the most sense, but also I will say the commonality. I was reading one commentary this week and they were uh addressing the pyramid theory, because some people have thought, is it the pyramid? And the point is you don't really know, but the point of that commentary I was reading, they were writing about pyramids, how pyramids in general have not been a good sign, you know, throughout history, in the sense of it's all pointed towards other deities, it's pointed towards other gods, it's been anti-God, you know, in a sense of the one true God. Um, so even within going into ancient uh times, a lot of people theorized that the Tower of Babel actually was a pyramid, and and there's good reason to believe that. And so the point was of the commentary is why would God take something that's basically been built as an offense to him to be for his kingdom? Yeah. Um and maybe he does it once again to redeem it.
SPEAKER_01I don't know, or it could be not or it could be the flip of that where that when we talk about that eternity that's placed in on the hearts of man, that we have this understanding of that which is good and perfect, but when we try to make god become gods ourselves, we mimic it in the best way that we can. That's true. Because I mean that's the I mean you think about the pyramids in Egypt, and the bait the basis of that was they thought that they thought that the par the pharaohs were gods themselves. And so to me, it could it could even be flipped in that way to where it's um it's not a mockery, but a mimicry of what we know to be true about who God is, and then we desecrate that just because we're we're horrible and and we are cyclically horrible throughout history. Um all right, so another question that comes up here too. Um you see, we made that statement earlier that Satan doesn't appear in the last two chapters, which is is clear. Name uh Satan doesn't show up in 21-22. What does show up at least directly at the beginning of 21 in verse 8, and also at the end of 21, more more in a uh referential way, is the lake of fire. Uh and so the question being, will there be an awareness of the lake of fire and those in it? And then as a secondary question to this, because this is something that you and I talked about off-air, will we have memory in this second heaven, new heaven, new earth, even specifically to knowing those people and those things that are there in the lake of fire?
SPEAKER_03I'll first answer, I guess I'll start because I think there's two different discussions there. Um Will we be aware? I don't know. And I think that's the most honest answer.
SPEAKER_01Wait, aware of the people that are there.
SPEAKER_03Like, will we miss them? Like, I mean, will be in other words, our lost friends, family that will be in the lake of fire, will we for all of eternity future be thinking about them burning in hell? Like that to put it that way. The Bible doesn't speak explicitly to that. What the Bible says is there will be no mourning or crying or tears or pain in heaven. So how does that how does that actually equate into a functional thought? You can look at it two different ways. Either one, does God, some have written and argue perhaps God frees you from that that burden, that that memory, if you will, at that point in heaven. So you're not carrying that burden on you, which is a conceivable idea. Or simply you also see God wiping away the tears there in verse four. So does God then heal supernaturally essentially that that grief that that would be there, but now he's there and he is greater, you know, than the grief that we'll carry. So I think the bigger point isn't so much are we, you know, what what's gonna happen. It's just uh excuse me, it's not will we be aware, it's that we will not mourn. We will not mourn and we will not grieve. There'll only be joy, I think, is what we have to take from that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think one of the things whenever whenever we're looking at this, God everything that God created was good, right? And so the idea being that all humanity that's ever been created, it was a good thing that he created all these people. What he didn't do is cause them to sin and cause them to rebel against him and his and his perfect his perfect design. And so as we've talked about earlier in the book of Revelation, God's mercy and his judgment are not separate from each other, they are the same thing, and that the the reaction of humanity to that mercy or that judgment is based on whether we are found in Christ or not. And so, what my theory about this would be is that as we are in the new heavens and new earth and are known, know as we are f fully known, we'll also know fully how much that Christ did for us. And ultimately, while we would want everyone to be there in the new heavens and the new earth, ultimately we look at God's mercy and his justice and say, this couldn't be any other way. This is the reality. Now, granted, the the burden is still on us to help other people understand and accept what's already been done for them. Um, but I think when it comes to the new heavens and the new earth, I think I think we will know, we will know and conceive of and maybe even be able to see what's happening in the lake of fire. But because it is all unified in who God is, of his mercy and his justice, the the the counter the reaction uh as you said, of mourning, of shame, of grief, of loss, there is no loss because it because it is eternal. And so our conception of that is going to be changed.
SPEAKER_03So I think because when people ask the question, it's all about a burden because they don't because and and I think that's the best way to answer is that that burden will not be on you. Like whether there's a conscious awareness that, like you're saying, because of the maturity essentially that we have now realized in that moment of being with God, and that maturity outweighs that and puts that away and saves us from that burden, or if God just in his mercy relieves us from that, that we don't have to. Some people write about that, you know, and there's it's speculative, but does God essentially take away that burden of that pain of the memory, if you will, of someone who went the wrong direction? Yeah, and so and that gets into the whole theological, you know, well, hold on, if you're washing away your memory, are you washing away your humanity and who you are? So it gets into a bigger discussion, and I think it's it's all speculative in nature, but either way, it goes back full circle to the burden is removed. It's not going to be a weight on you because God wipes away the tears. But I also think what has to be brought up real quickly on verse eight, I didn't get to preach eight because it it didn't, I didn't have time for it. But eight talks about the lake of fire like we're talking about, but it comes at a weird time. And I think it's worth having a conversation about because hell has basically already been kind of covered, essentially, in chapter 20's great white throne. But then it comes up right there in the middle of heaven. But I think where you have to connect the point to is in verse seven, the one who conquers will have this heritage, and who's the one who conquers is the one who's conquered in Jesus Christ that their victory is claimed in him. But then it says, as for the other side, the non-conquerors, the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, the murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake of fire. Now, why is that verse there? I think it's to remind us what we have been, what that's meant for us to be a conqueror and how we've conquered those things. Because if you read verse eight, we're all guilty of pretty much everything on that list, which is pretty amazing. Um, you might say, well, hold on. Um, I'm not a murderer. Jesus says, well, if you have hatred and anger in your heart, you're a murderer. We've all been sexually immoral, we're all liars, we've all been faithless, we've all been cowards, you know, we've all done pretty much everything on that list, but yet we have a heritage. Right. And our heritage is coming because we are conquerors in Christ. And either you can let Christ conquer those things in you, is the point, or you will then reap what you sow for those things. Right. But I think it's an important connector that in heaven is full of just a bunch of redeemed sinners. I think that's why it's there. Is it like it's like we are the cowards, yeah. You know, we are the sexually immoral, we're all of those, but we've conquered through Christ.
SPEAKER_01And that's why I think um, because I would agree, I think heritage and grace has to do with it, that uh the difference being are you are you identified as a son or not?
SPEAKER_03Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Or have you accepted your sonship in in Christ or not? Um, but I think it also connects back to when we're talking about how is this good, right? Um our conception, whenever we talk about something being perfect, is something that's without pain or or is completely um uh easy, you know, stuff like that. The the biblical conception of perfection is of something being finished and complete. And I uh that's what we're seeing here in chapter 21 when you have this unifying of heaven and earth in the with the new Jerusalem, where you have the lake of fire that's there for the the finished inheritance of those who rejected Christ, and heaven for the the finished um inheritance for those who are uh who are found in Christ. It's done at that point. It's complete. It's bat it things this new creation is the way that we were des the the internal longing and hurt that we feel in our heart and our soul is completed in this place. And the beauty of that we cannot comprehend because we we hurt, we suffer, we we we degrade. Um and so I think that that's that's something that we have to grasp there is that every promise that Christ has deli has given, of both heaven and of hell, yeah, are completed here. Right. And so I I think one of the things that we glory in in heaven is the fact that he is true to his promises. And you see that over and over again, that that of them saying that he's faithful and true. Yeah. Um and so some I think for a lot of us as we're considering what it's gonna be like to be in heaven, I think we need to obviously pleasure is a part of it, but I think completion is a far greater part of it, and I think is the currency by which we experience what heaven is gonna be. It's of that of that it's finished. Yeah. And it's this great sigh of all creation. Um and so yeah, I mean you you see that grace there. Um and so then let's uh let's uh let's talk about that question then. Will memory be retained? And you know, when we were talking about this earlier, you made specific to um the sufferings of our lives, like you know, for those who who walked through abuse and walked through difficulty and sickness and pain and just kind of the the currency by which we live in this world. So you know, will we still have those memories of life whenever we're there in heaven?
SPEAKER_03You won't have memories of death, like the the the of the difficulties, the pain. If pain no longer is there, I think those those painful things, if they're there, it's only because you now see the salvaging and the goodness that God's delivered in that. But I think it's also an interesting thought of what what specifically facts do you remember? Like, because even sometimes people ask, like, like, well, I remember like, well, I remember you, Matt. Like when I see you in heaven one day, will we actually recognize each other and see each other? The Bible says yes. I mean, really, if you're looking at it inferred, uh, I'll give you just a couple examples off the top of my head. When Jesus has the Mount of Transfiguration moment, you see Moses and Elijah show up, and everybody knows it's Moses and Elijah, those that are there, and it's because they just knew. Um, in the same way David, when he lost his son, he says, I will go to him, but he will not come back to me. But he says, I will go to him, like he's gonna be there in heaven, his baby, uh, and that I'm gonna actually know him. He's gonna know me and I will know him. So there's this expectation in heaven that we will see each other. So there will be some form of memory. There has to be, yeah, uh, because it ties to the essence of who we are. Now, will people still be carrying, say, like you brought the the item of abuse and those things, like trauma? I think they're freed from all that trauma. I don't think they carry that junk anymore. Um, because those are former things and the old is gone and the new is come. He says, I'm making all things new. Um, where today God redeems our pain and that pain's there, but he redeems it. But then he says pain will no longer exist.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03And like right now, people that go through trauma, they still have the pain, but it's just redeemed. But then we're told he's making all things new, so the pain will shall be no more, he said in verse four.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I this is my take on it. People might disagree. I don't think those things will be on our mind anymore. I think that's just gone. I think it's gone at that point because he's made all things new.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I would I would differ, I think, a little bit on that, but more from the not from this this perspective that the pain would still be there or even the the character in which we know these things that have happened to us. But I mean you consider earlier in the book of Revelation when you have the martyrs under under the throne, correct? They're saying, you know, how long, oh God, how long will you allow this to happen? I mean, they and I mean and the the the feeling of it is so much that even one of the listeners on this this podcast had asked, I mean, are they still suffering here? Why is God allowing? And and so there is this recognition of injustice and of evil that's still there. And let's say and we have to also recognize that one of the eternal attributes that we see about the about the uh the resurrected body of Christ are the scars in his hands and in his side. That's not that I mean there is pain associated with that. I but what I what I think will be that what what we will remember about it is that we will see the evil with our personal pain detached from it. That because we are not degrading, because we are not attached to death, we will see how God how there was injustice and how God redeemed it. And I think that the that and that's kind of what I know that's what partly what you're saying is that I mean, the way things were, in order to, I think, understand truly how things are, we have to understand how things were. And I think that's part of the reason why the lake of fire is still going to be visible, because there is still the eternal thing of God has dealt with justice.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think it's well, I will also tell the listeners here in this, there's not a clear answer on this. That's why there's debate. So I'll also say this. But I'll the reason why I would differ on your opinion on that, though, Matt, is when the tribulation saints, when their prayers are coming up to the altar of God, that's also in the temple of God, in the present-day heaven. You see a temple there where now God is the temple in the new heavens and new earth. It's a new era, is my point. And things have changed. Like, and when you get to Revelation 21 and 22, there's now a newness. He's literally says, I've made all things new. And so if pain now is gone and not being redeemed, because that's what God does right now, is he works all things together for good. And so he salvages and redeems pain today. But one day he says pain will be no more. Right. So when I read that, I think it will be no more there in my my present conscience. Like I won't have to toil with that because even the pain of years past, of trauma, things that happen in our lives, even though God does good and he works them out for good, still hurts. It hurts. It's a burden. And so that's why I don't think it'll be there. And I would differentiate it from Jesus' scars because those aren't signs of pain for him, those are signs for victory. And that's and that's the difference, I think, is that was good news, and that was God's plan for man through Jesus Christ. So those are eternal reminders of his actual glory and of his victory and and ultimately his triumph, where our signs of pain, like in our conscience psyche from years past of trauma, those are sources oftentimes of shame, not glory. And so I think those things will be removed. And once again, it's speculative. All we know is there's not going to be pain and tears. But for me, it would make sense, in my estimation, that God would remove those things from my psyche while still retaining the essence of who I am and who ultimately I'm made to be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And listener, we we hope that you do also understand that as we're talking about these things like abuse and trauma, that there's no point in this in which we're saying those are good things and things that that, you know, um where you where you fall into the the false, the false uh thinking of, well, uh good things can your your life is is better now, so that was actually good. And it's like, no, that that what what is evil is evil. Right. And and and even here at the end, what was evil is still evil, and it's gonna be evil for all time there in the lake of fire. And so, I mean, I hope that you take heart in that. That if you if you walk in this world burdened by that and and hanging over you and and feeling the shame of it, know that that is that is cast into the lake of fire. It is gone in Jesus Christ. And I think um that is that is what we we need to be able to rest in is that He will deal with this and they and the the instigators, the ones and that's directly what's said here, the ones that were behind this are gonna get their due and God God will stand up for you. But Stephen, you were gonna say something?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm just thinking on the in kind of this similar idea when I first heard about the I the concept of like you won't recognize the people you love in heaven sometimes. Like maybe you'll recognize them, but like you won't necessarily be married in a sense, like to your spouse. I'm like, how would you not get sad about that? And then I'm thinking, well, there's not sadness in heaven, so I guess you don't feel it, you don't notice it. And I guess to another point, there is the I have started to think about like my dog, like if my dog can get to heaven, that's always a common question. Yeah. I'm like, would I not be sad and like miss my dog at some point?
SPEAKER_03Well, I think it's because you've seen greater things, and because ultimately the joy is in Christ, like it's his presence. Like for us on this earth, you get a taste of heaven on earth through a lot of things. And part of that I would argue is marriage when it's done right, you know, it becomes sacred in that sense of it's it's you're you're married to a bride, you know, just as we are the bride of Christ. And so there's a joy and an intimacy that you get in a good biblical, godly marriage that for us, when that's done well, a lot of Christian people grieve that, thinking, how can I do life without it? Well, you're gonna have something better than that. Actually, that was just meant to point to towards the greater reality anyway, right? Which is you and God. Like that that is the whole point, is God gave us marriage to give us a small picture of the glory that really is to be revealed, I believe, in that. Um, so I think it's just it's a it's a lesser to greater argument. There's something greater we can't fully understand. And on dogs, that's a whole nother. Um there will be animals in heaven. Isaiah 11 speaks to this. There's a couple places, I think it's Isaiah 11 and 65. There speaks to these realities of animals there. Are they our animals? I don't I don't think there's enough biblical evidence to say it's your animals, but but will there be animals? I think there actually absolutely will be. Yeah, and and because you're seeing once again garden to garden. And in the garden you see the animals are walking amongst God's people, and and you see God's glory reflected in those animals. So I think we will likewise see some pretty amazing things. And we'll just get to give a hug to Mufasa and hang out there with the lions and do all that, and it's gonna be awesome. Mufasa. Yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and these are all things that you know that that's why people love reading the book of Revelation because there's a lot to delve into and to understand about our human nature now. Uh, and we do hope that as you read chapter 21, that you're encouraged, that you immerse yourself in it. Because I think that's part of that, again, the book book of Revelation is is mostly descriptive of things. Now, there are some parts where it says do that do this, don't do this, but a lot of it is saying, I need you to see this. And I hope that as you're reading it, close like after you read these things, close your eyes and begin to try to conceptual conceptualize what they're talking about. And I mean, it it will take it'll take your mentality to a whole other plane. Um and so, yeah, I mean, as we are finishing out here then in chapter 21, Jonathan, any last things, Stephen, any last things before we we sign off for today? I'm good.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01All right. Well, friends, thank you for hanging in there with us today as we've walked through this. You know, uh one of the things that we always want to throw out there is that if you have questions about uh the content here in the book of Revelation, uh feel free to uh direct message us on Instagram at Austin Baptist Church or uh do a contact for us through uh AustinBaptistchurch.com. Uh we do we we've been chatting about this, but I think we will do after the series is over, one last episode trying to wrap up, wrap up a couple of things, a couple of cle questions that have come up, and then just generally observe, you know, what has it been like teaching and walking through the full book of Revelation? But in the meantime, if there are any questions that come to mind, please reach out. But on behalf of Steven, Jonathan, and myself, thank you for joining us on the podcast today on the Rev Revelation Director's Cut series, and we will see you next time on the Citizen ATX podcast.