Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
PreHeat: Abortion
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As we step into this 2024 election season, it seems like abortion might one of the biggest issues on the ballot. This will be an important topic at the federal level, but especially at the state level as several states begin to shape legislation. So how are we as Christians to think about this issue? What can the Church do to help in this political climate? Join Matt, Jonathan, and Stephen as they discuss the topic of abortion.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillum, and we are continuing this week with the second episode of our preheat series, talking about hot topics that are coming up as we move into the summer. Uh here on the Citizen ATX podcast, our goal is to help equip you for the kinds of conversations that you're going to have, both in the uh in your cultural city where you live, but also in the uh cultures of the church in which you worship. And so today with me is uh Pastor Jonathan. Hello, Jonathan. Howdy, Matthew. And then also Stephen. Hey, Steven. Hello. And so today we're going to take on a topic that has come back up in the news, which seems to never get out of the news, but that is abortion legislation. All right. And so a little bit of background here. In 2022, Roe v. Wade, which was the landmark Supreme Court case legalizing abortion nationwide, uh, got overturned by the Dobbs case. And as a result, you started to have kind of a Wild West uh feel to it, where every state was enacting its own uh abortion legislation. And that varied from very, very from very late into the pregnancy to very early in the pregnancy, even to some saying that once there's a detectable heartbeat, you cannot have an abortion. Um, and in in the midst of this, uh, and this happened here a couple of weeks ago, the the state of Arizona discovered that there was an 1864 law, which is this is what's funny about this, is it was a law that Arizona had before it was a state, like it was still a territory whenever it made this law, but it was a law that had never been repealed that passed ban uh banned banning all abortions at any stage or anyone who would give drugs to the same effect, to the effect that those people that person doing that uh who was who was uh making the abortion happen would get five to seven years in jail. Um so it got to the legislature of Arizona, got overturned. But as a result, because we're in an election year, now everybody wants to know what does everyone want to do about this. And so um starting off, I mean, it's pretty clear that the political left, them the Democratic Party, is all is pro-light abortion, where it's you know, some some manner of time based on the choice of the mother leading up to the pregnancy. But there's a little bit of difference here now that's happening. And Jonathan, what I mean, what are you seeing happen with the rhetoric and with the general flow um of people toward the idea of abortion uh in even in like the Republican Party, for instance.
SPEAKER_02And on the left, I I there the left advocates for basically no restrictions on abortion. I mean, ultimately, no restrictions even up to the point of, you know, at the end late, late, late term abortion. So that's that's the left. You've seen an extremist position, I believe, that's come out in recent years in response to this issue. But then on the right, usually there's been what the left would call an extreme position of basically no abortion, but that has shifted right now uh culturally, which is worth noting that uh the right has has strongly held a pretty conservative viewpoint on abortion of essentially no abortion, or for some that maybe were more moderate, they had a very small, you know, few exceptions, kind kind of clauses within their uh platform.
SPEAKER_00Usually rape and incense.
SPEAKER_02Yes, exactly, those kind of things. But then uh Donald Trump obviously just uh probably a month ago now, it's several weeks ago, he softened his platform uh nationally and basically said you can't vote with a with a you can't get a win an election with a strong, you know, uh uh sanctity of life platform. So he softened it um basically out of a pragmatic approach, he said, to garner support nationally. Um so that's been the concerning point, actually, I would say for me. I mean, the the ideologically left side has always been for abortion, but the conservative side has always stood strong against it, but that that stance is softening right now, unfortunately, which is really, I think, biblically saddening for all of us as Christians.
SPEAKER_00And I think one of the things that we have to take into account, too, is some more background, more uh foundational issues here. Because when we talk about the why, I mean it's easy to to place the term abortion in there as the issue, but that's not really the issue. The issue is behind that. Um and realistically what it's looking at is the difference between the support of a uh a a child, as we believe as we would um believe that the fetus is a child, um, and on the other side, uh total sexual freedom and liberation. And so what where the where where the liberal uh point of view would normally take this is to say, well, this is all about the choice of the woman, it's about woman's health, it's about woman's autonomy, the ability to uh be able to make whatever choices she wants to make about her own body. Um and those are generally the scare tactics that are used to push back against uh abortion legislation. But to me it it's um it's kind of I hate using that word, but repugnant, that we are that the that a party upon having finally and and what I would term as an evil legislation of of Roe v. Wade overturned, now all of a sudden starts turning to, well, well, you know, we just well let's let let's let's make it the state's problem. Yeah. Um I to me it it's kicking the football, or it's punting the the can down the field to the next to the next person. It's I care more about winning an election than I care about supporting the life of unborn children.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um because ultimately, you know, you we we talked in the last episode about the idea of the oppressed versus the non-oppressed. This that we're in the same boat here. A lot of people will point to, well, women are oppressed, therefore, abortion should be right. Um on the flip side of that, uh impoverished people are oppressed, so therefore abortion helps the impoverished, which is not true, but is the argument as it goes out there. And so, Jonathan, how are we supposed to to argue in an environment like this where uh seemingly both parties are starting to get off the rails in the wrong direction? Well, I would first of all argue the baby's oppressed in this in this conversation.
SPEAKER_02And I think that's where we have to stand on. I think it brings to light, I think, why you can't put your hope in politicians as as the ideal uh uh herald of righteousness. You know, at the end of the day, I think sometimes we look to political leaders to be spiritual leaders, and when we do, we're always disappointed. Um, and this is another example of that where it's sad, but in some ways I'm not surprised either that this is where we find ourselves because at the core of politicians, and this is gonna sound mean because I know there also are some really good godly politicians out there, so this isn't all of them. But if you're talking about at the core of politics, what do politicians need above all? It's votes. Yeah, they need votes. I mean, that that at the end of the day, that's what they need. And Donald Trump's statement and the those who advocate for his position is not logically incorrect. You know, it is hard to win an election with, you know, a hard stance on abortion. But the point is, is your conviction supposed to be based on pragmatic reasoning of, well, are you trying to get votes or are you trying to honor God? I mean, at the end of the day, like your is your is your perspective on life based on that of, well, what wins the crowd or what wins God and his approval? And of course, we're supposed to live for the approval of God. And so it's very discouraging to see that, the lack of backbone amongst many uh conservative politicians across our country. And I think it is a call for every Christian, evangelical politician to not waver on that. Uh and and I think it's it's just saddening, but I think it also just kind of brings back to uh Christians, it should bring back to us a humble realization that that you can't put all your chips in politicians. Like that's why Jesus one day is going to establish a theocracy and he's gonna reign and rule as the righteous son of God. But uh but unfortunately, many politicians out there, regardless of their political leanings, will cave on moral issues when push comes to shove due to votes. Plain and simple.
SPEAKER_00Well, and one question that come that kind of came up out of our last podcast that relates into this is the role of protest and the the abortion issue. Um we spent a large part of last episode decrying the role of protest, especially in the Israel Israel-Gaza war. Um but when we when we look at the evangelicals and our interaction with anti-abortion uh movements, there have been a protest has been a pretty large part of it. So John, then how do we draw that line there? I mean, what what is if someone were to say, well, what's the difference between protesting for abortion versus protesting for Palestine?
SPEAKER_02Well, and I talked about that a little bit on last week's episode is there's there's a difference. What's your motivation would be where I start. Are you protesting to protest the righteousness of God and his desire, or are you protesting uh your own sense of false virtue of man? You know, and so there's two different causes. Now, for those that, for instance, picketed outside of planned parenthood facilities for years and still do in many, many states, uh for them, for many of them, there was a genuine desire for the righteousness of God to come down to this earth to stop the the murdering of children.
SPEAKER_00Well, and even and even if you've uh heard um there's a woman named Abby Johnson her testimony about talking about the role of one of those groups because they were praying for the people like when they would come out. Exactly. That the that the instead of throwing rocks or bricks, the response was we're going to pray for these people. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Because by that pro term protest, I think it's important to also kind of differentiate that term. It's not like standing in opposition from that era. That that that is ultimately was the cause largely of those that did that in that era.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but there and to be fair, there also were the instances of abortion clinic bombings and things like that that were happening. And so, I mean, where where then do we see because I mean you made that statement about motivation, how do we see the motivation then come out correctly? Like what if if someone is is protesting or picketing or whatever, whatever uh demonstrating another another word that could be used for it, what kind of outcome is gonna happen because it's being done the right way?
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, the best outcome would be the glory of God. If whether we eat or drink or whatever we do, it's all for the glory of God. So we have to ask if is how is this bringing glory to God? I would I would bring that question. So what brings glory to God is is speaking his truth, you know, and living for it and helping man, you know, serving others. It's love God and love people. So so if you're loving God in truth, but you're not helping people, you know, in practice, then then you're probably not bringing glory to God. And in fact, if you're harming people, and going to those extreme examples, like you said, of bombs and other things, that obviously is not bringing glory to God. So I think that's what we have to be careful of is when you do stand for righteousness, make sure you stand the right way. Uh we talked about that a little bit last week too, but I think that's the aim is the glory of God and the good of man. That that's really what we're supposed to be aiming for in life in general.
SPEAKER_00You ready for a real hot take? Sure. Go for it. I think that the that many churches and the way that they do worship ultimately resembles the wrong kind of protest. Where they say a lot of things and they demonstrate a lot of things, but once they leave the walls of the church, they don't do anything to to actually act out those praises that they were doing. In a way, it's as though the church is demonstrating on a weekly basis, right? But then going out and going about their business as though nothing else. And we talked about that again last episode. Um, that idea that a lot of these protesters, the goal is to get somebody else to do it. Yeah. I wonder how how much in the Christian world we do that with God, where we at where we ask him, pray him for him to do a lot of things, and then we don't put ourselves on the line and then do nothing about it.
SPEAKER_02I know.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it I I think it I think that bears itself out in the rates of evangelism that go on in the country. I think that bears itself out in the way that um, you know, people the the rate of churches that even though the church tends to be a lot higher in poverty ministry and in mercy ministry than otherwise, right? Than the atheist groups or whatever else, um still there is that gap there. And that that ultimately becomes the biggest criticism of the uh pro-choice movement against pro-life, is that well, you're not really pro-life, you're just pro uh or anti-abortion. And so I guess one of the questions is what then can a believer do to get beyond just being anti-abortion to being pro-life.
SPEAKER_02Well, and that is largely, by the way, loaded rhetoric when you hear that, because that's also not true. I mean, people that are are pro-life have been saving lives and coming alongside moms, babies for for decades. I mean, is it's the case. I mean, there's pregnancy resource centers all over America that are just there dying for people to come over there and come receive resources and help and prayer and very tangible, practical things, helping moms get work, helping them get the right resources, having the the crib, the car seats, the diapers, the clothes, you know, everything they need to succeed. Um, there are people that are ready. And then on the other side, obviously, with an adoption and foster care, there are so many Christians that have led the charge in those arenas and continue to because they are pro-life. Uh, they're Christians that give money to all these causes and extreme amounts of money. So those are all ways you can get involved in it. Uh, and you should. And I think in our current day and age of Christianity, I think there is a good kind of activism that has come into the church in light of some of these things, like you said, that people don't want to just be Sunday morning Christians singing things. They want to be doing them. And that's led to a lot of good. That's but that's also led to some problems. Um, for instance, I know this would be a little bit of a rabbit trail, but in that social justice idea, which is kind of what we're getting at, of of bringing good into the social realm to bring that justice, there is good in doing these things, of providing those mercy ministries and the the ability, for instance, in that example, of bringing life, you know, to all of those that choose life. Right. Those are good things. The key is that the gospel cannot take a second uh second chair to that cause. And that's where the church has gone awry, where then it becomes all about social aid, and then we'll talk about Jesus maybe. And so you have to you have to keep things in the right order.
SPEAKER_00That's the same reason why I think a lot of mission trips wind up going toward the idea of, well, I'm gonna go build something. Well, that's a very and and and please don't hear me on this that I'm saying it's a bad idea to go on a mission trip and go build an orphanage or something like that. But a lot of times it's a very good way for people not to have to share their faith on a trip because they're doing something else that they can say. True. Yeah. And I mean the other part of that being, and it, you know, you hear a lot of times in the social justice arena that quote from St. Francis of Assisi where he says, um, uh, preach the gospel at all times and when necessary, use words. Well, friends, it's always necessary to use words. That's how we communicate with people. I mean, it I I think we are so obsessed with an either-or kind of mentality that, well, this is it has to either be this or this. Realistically, pro-life means that you are for for both the child and the mother. Right. Uh, that you're for both the both the person who um is able is unable to have kids, and so they adopt, and the person who's dealing with extreme poverty and having to make very real decisions about what's going to happen in their life if they choose to have this child. Right. And as a result, I mean, when we look at mothers, they need to be the most honored among us. I mean, we just walk through Mother's Day, and I mean, it is it is a beautiful thing of how mothers lay out their lives for others. But when we look at this the abortion debate and things like that, it all it usually devolves into that. It's a you're either this or this. It's no Christian Christianity, we are both and and we say no to abortion. It's just like this is the wrong way to deal with the problem. Um uh and ultimately the killing of a life is wrong. I I I mean, uh and of an innocent life at least. I mean, when you talk about the kind of things that actually made Jesus angry in the Bible, it was all it was usually the uh corrupting of innocence. Um when you see him talk about uh it's better for you to tie a millstone around your neck and throw yourself into the sea than to corrupt one of these little ones. Or also when you see the the part uh uh the story of Jesus going to the temple and flipping over the money changer tables, again, that was a group of people that were taking advantage of Gentiles and ke standing between them and finding God. And so that is, I think, the thing that we have to keep in mind when we come into this, that it's not it's just not as simple as being uh pro or anti-abortion. It's are you gonna live out your Christian faith in a very real, tangible way, speaking the gospel of life into people and also providing the means for them to be able to survive.
SPEAKER_02And I will say though, it is important though, doctrinally, I will kind of go back to that point though, while you're while I hear you, orthopraxy matters with orthodoxy, but orthodoxy, you know, right thinking leads to right doing, orthopraxy, but orthodoxy is diminishing, and you'll never get to the right doing if we don't have the right thinking. And and I think that's the problem that right now is in the modern church, is as you see a softening in the political realm on the issue of abortion, you're likewise seeing a softening on the topic of abortion within many young Christians that are shaped by ideological leaders in our world versus being shaped by the word of God. Because if you listen to the word of man long enough, it's gonna start speaking against the word of God. And now it's coming from quote conservative Christian political leaders that are softening on this topic that God is very clear on. And so I also just want to be clear on this podcast that abortion is wrong. It is absolutely wrong biblically. There is no ground to stand on for a softer stance on that. Now, to your point, that right thinking needs to lead to right doing, and it needs to lead to holistically doing everything you can as an individual and as a church to come alongside those moms, those babies, and do everything you can to bring good from those broken situations. But I just want to make sure people hear that that are listening. This topic is going nowhere for the next few months. Right. This is gonna become a dividing issue in our country when it comes to the election. And I hope that Christians will rise up to still know what is true. Right. Even when politicians start lying to you that you used to trust on this, I hope you actually still know your word and you will lean on it that yes, abortion is biblically wrong. There's not grounds for it. There isn't. Uh, but then also there's a lot, as you said, of commandments on my life and your life and everybody's listening to be a part of bringing good from that difficult situation.
SPEAKER_00Well, and let me ask this, because I mean I I think, you know, we're we're 18 minutes into this episode of the podcast, and we kind of clearly got we clearly got a lot earlier to the fact that abortion is the wrong thing. I mean, right. I I think about I I think about this way. If you're say that you're a student failing a class, using the same argument would be like, well, I guess I should murder my teacher then. Like that that's the the right thing to do. That will make the problem go away. That doesn't make sense. So how how do we how do we how did we get here in the first place where abortion could be held as some kind of moral high ground in our society by very compassionate, thoughtful people? How did how did we get to this point?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think a lot of it happened. I mean, if you're going historically, a lot of it, you you alluded to it earlier. It ties into the sexual revolution and the rise of feminism across culture. But there's also a lot of just secret, dark, nasty stuff as far as the origin of this. It gets into the line of eugenics, it gets into the line of ultimately racism that's that's so was so heavily practiced by Margaret Sanger and those that originally made this idea mainstream. It was all about ultimately the sexual revolution of women and the empowerment of them, and really to try to bring the destruction to other ethnic groups that she and other racist people did not like. Um, and this is the sad, horrible foundation of this practice. People don't want to acknowledge that, but that is 100% where this all comes from. How did we get there now to 2024 where now it's seen as a a culturally acceptable thing at the grocery store to talk about? Oh, yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm for it. Yeah. It's it's how sin always happens. You know, it's there's a slow roll where things get normalized. It's the same thing in the LGBTQ community. We get we'll talk about that another week, but there's things that slowly there's a moral degradation that happens in society when things get normalized. And at the comfort of this topic, or at the center of this topic is the comfort of man, comfort of man and woman.
SPEAKER_00And if you want a really, really easy illustration on this, it you think about the the rock band Kiss, right? In the 60s, I want to rock and roll all night and party every day. That was like no, you were not allowed to listen to that. It was rebel music. And now it's played in Walmarts. And so I mean it's it's like, you know, there is that ongoing softening. And it and it it also comes to the the nature of mankind that we we grow desensitized to things over time, especially when sin repeated over and over again without conviction. And I mean, you use that term there uh talking about the sexual revolution for women. Um I hear my my take on this is that the the main person who benefits from the pro-abortion movement are the men who like to have sex with lots of women because then they bear no responsibility, no accountability, they don't even have to deal with the health issues that cut and the guilt that goes along with them.
SPEAKER_02And it has to be noted that men are the causation of many of these abortions. They pressure women into abortions, and women then get abandoned by men and they feel lost and broken. And there are many women that have chosen abortions, not because necessarily they wanted it, because in their mind they could not see another path forward because a man would not. Accept responsibility for his actions and help her. So absolutely, it is not just a female issue. It's a man and woman issue. But the problem is it's gotten packaged into this umbrella of female empowerment that somehow a woman is supposed to feel more empowered by making a decision to kill the life that's been put in her womb and to lie to herself, to then say that it wasn't life, it was just a clump of cells, it was something else. But I can tell you from firsthand experience of speaking to women, women lie to themselves about that, but then there's a natural grief that many women have to deal with afterwards because there is an aspect of the creative order that God has designed in us that maybe culture lies to us, but sometimes we just can't lie to ourselves. And because we know the conviction of right and wrong because God has revealed that to us, Romans 2 in our conscience. And so there are many women that have gone through great despair also by quote taking the liberation of abortion and taking what they pr they construe as a right, but then they realize they've done wrong. And it grieves them and it wrecks them because it's not good. You know, it's not good in pleasing the sight of the Lord and it only brings harm to everyone involved.
SPEAKER_00And to make it worse, women who have gone through that then sometimes feel this door get closed against them to the church. That's true. Well, now you're a murderer. And it's like, well, what I mean, I don't know. To me, I as I'm thinking about how can I show compassion to somebody who has made who has made a terrible decision. I mean, the reality is all of us have made terrible decisions and we all are held accountable before God, and then we are called uh in the scripture to bear one another's uh I think it's bear one another's burdens, right? And I mean, if there's any place in the world that someone who has gone through an abortion can turn for compassion, for love, for correction, and for um community, a place, it should be the church.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Um but the problem is because we get sucked into this either or argument ourselves, we also contribute to that at the end of the day. I mean, it's not and I don't I don't hear me in this saying that the the attitudes of the church cause abortions to happen. Right more so because we don't talk about these things, because we don't exhibit and exude a pro-life kind of culture and love of one another, we don't do anything to stop that connotation from getting out of it.
SPEAKER_02And by the way, and every church is full of women that have had abortions. That also needs to be stated. I've known women in every church I've served in, including this one that have had abortions, which is also good news in the sense that there's I've seen redemption and God forgive and salvage that woman's life to really do a lot of good, you know, that bring good through that messy situation. There's forgiveness and then there's redemption. And God's brought really uh beauty from ashes as he does with all other things. So there's hope if you hear this as well, that if you've walked down that road, that doesn't mean God's done with you. It means uh that he does want you to ask for forgiveness for that, but then he has great plans for you. Just as the blood of Christ atones all of our sin, it atones for that sin as well. His grace is sufficient. So there's but but to that point I was trying to make though, we need to not think that this is like a them versus us problem. Right. There are abortions, there are ladies who have had abortions in every church virtually of America.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And we need to be sensitive to that and understand that. Uh, but also to your point, maybe, maybe I hope, I pray that maybe some of them will feel empowered to speak to some of this. Yeah. Because it's one thing to have a guy preacher like me talk about what the Bible says, and I can do it, and that it is the Bible. This is what it says. But there is something powerful when you hear from a woman that's gone through that and bought into the lie and then realized it was a lie, and uh, and communicate, though, how she saw God's grace abound through the situation. So um, yeah, stand on truth, but definitely we we need more more men and women doing so in the church.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think we need to be a listener for wherever you worship, I hope that you will consider what would it look like for me to be the kind of person that helps helps foster these kind of conversations. And I'll say this too: if if your church is not looking to do great children's ministry, you're not participating in a pro-life atmosphere. I mean, that's it's a huge need, and pe and the spiritual lives of children start very early and taking care of them and also taking care for the parents, just consider how can you, how can you, wherever you worship, how can you be a part of that pro-life, real the real pro-life movement. Um, and so I mean that's that's our hopes as we're as we're pursuing this, you know, you're gonna have to you're gonna have to educate yourself as you come into these elections. Each of you each state is gonna be different in the way they approach it, each candidate is gonna be different in the way they appro uh approach it. I do I do pray and hope that you would uh that you'll approach this with a a um seasoning of hope, a seasoning of of compassion, but also that you look into Bible, into the Bible, learn what it says, and then stand on that. Um that will make the difference for you. And so as we get to the end of this episode, Steven, anything for the bunch? John, anything else? Any last words?
SPEAKER_02Educate yourself on who stands on how people stand on this position would be my best final take. Because at the end of the day, this is a policy issue now because of Roe v. Wade's overturning, and every state legislator uh in this country now has a voice to vote on this matter according to their state. And so we need to make sure we we pray for those that stand on life, but also vote for those who stand for life, and you need to educate yourself on that. But the good news is the church can move in power to bring change in this. Uh obviously we always can spiritually, but now even legally, there's there's processes to bring about great change in our land.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All right, friends. Well, that is the second episode of the pre teen pre-heat, not pre-teen. What are we talking about here, Steven? I'm just off the race. Hanging out with your daughter too much. Hanging out with my kids. They're crazy. But no, thank you for joining us for the second of the preheat episodes here on the Citizen ATX podcast. And we hope that you'll join us next time as we continue to take on these hard conversations from a biblical perspective, knowing that we walk in a secular world. Love you guys. Take care, and we'll see you next time on the Citizen ATX Podcast.