Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Soul Killers: Secrets
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When you were a kid you may have heard the phrase "secrets don't make friends and friends don't make secrets." We understand from a young age that keeping secrets is an unhealthy practice. Why does keeping secrets have such a negative effect on our spiritual life? Join Jonathan and Matt in the next episode of Soul Killers.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillum. We are glad you are joining us as we continue our Soul Killers series. Each week of this series, we have been looking at the opposite of the positive spiritual pathways that's laid out in Scripture for us and how we can build our lives in Christ by focusing on the things that do the opposite, that that tend to weaken, diminish our relationship with Christ, and talking about then how we can fight these soul killers. And so with me in studio is Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Howdy, Matthew. And so this week we are going to talk about secrets. And so, Jonathan, why how are secrets a soul killer? What why is it that what I put in my dear diary is just such a killer to my soul? Like what are you talking about here?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't know about the diary stuff. Um you can carry on with your diary if you want to, Matt. Um I I think I think in general when we talk about secrets in in the context of the sermon series really was secret sin. So I think it's also important to talk about that of what we're what we're hiding. And when we hide sin, it usually leads to destructive things in our heart and in our soul. Um the the idea that it was being presented in the sermon was that the heart is deceitful and desperately sick, Jeremiah 17, 9. And so when we just internalize and we individualize all of our actions and what we're doing, it is easy to justify our behavior and to think what we are doing, that which is wrong, is actually right. And that's the reason why secrecy in the context of just our Christian living is not a good thing. It's not good for man to be alone because we can become very self-destructive in our choices, and that's why instead that idea of confession was presented of God wants us to actually be open and honest about what's going on in our lives.
SPEAKER_00Well, and it's funny, I saw a uh post the other day from somebody who was discussing the topic of main character syndrome. And it's interesting because you're talking about that idea of justification of things, of the isolation, individualization of it. But we that's what we do when it comes to a lot of things that are secret in our lives, right? That we we make ourselves the main character of the story. So even if it's something that's ugly or something that is diminishing or destructive to us, because we're the main character of our own story, um, we can find ways to make ourselves anti-heroes in any kind of situation, even to the extent where we're in a situation where we're clearly wrong, making ourselves a hero of a sort uh for doing the wrong thing.
SPEAKER_02A hero, or sometimes we make ourselves a victim. You know, like where our behavior is justified because we were victimized in this way, and that then makes that bad behavior righteous. You know, we can get very twisted up very quickly.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I was told when I was a seventh grader, uh, something that's stuck with me all these years, that one of the wor probably the worst thing a Christian can say is the are the words, at least I don't. And you you address that in the context of the message. Um but it's true. I mean, when when we find ourselves in any situation where we say at least I don't, dot dot dot, you're already admitting that you're doing something that's wrong and you're trying to figure out a way to get around it. Um and so I mean we I think we recognize that these secrets tend to be soul killers because they um they cause us to be deluded about reality. It uh it it helps us to deceive ourselves into lies.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00Uh and then it also separates us from other people and other relationships just because you know, we're designed to um to be like these trees planted by rivers, not like a cactus out in the middle of the desert. Um and there there's a a vulnerability there. And so if we're gonna be talking then about secrets as soul killers, there is also a term out there called confidentiality, right? And so, you know, being a part of a church and being a part of church administration, I hear a lot about the idea of transparency and uh accountability and things like that. And it comes to that balance of okay, then what is something that's comp the secret, like an actual secret, versus something that is something kept confidential? Uh, how are they how are those two things different? Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.
SPEAKER_02Well, maybe even go back to that term transparency. Nobody wants everything a hundred percent transparent to every person. No individual wants that, and no organization wants that, because that is not helpful to have every detail of your life or the life of your organization aired out to every single person all day, every day. Like Coca-Cola's secret formula. Yeah, that is not a helpful exercise. So sometimes we demand transparency, and I think we don't really understand what we're saying because that is not a wise and prudent action either. But then on the opposite of the spectrum, that word secrecy is also certainly not wise or or helpful because what secrecy means is nobody knows. Transparency means everybody knows, essentially, and there's there's absolutely no discernment on who receives what. Both of those extremes can lead to a lot of heartache. Where the right answer is is that term you used confidentiality, because confidential does not mean secrecy. Confidential means that information is shared with trusted individuals. They are entrusted with that information. And um, and that goes it really into both realms, both on the interpersonal relationships as well as organizational leadership. That's why in organizations you have what's called trustees for many of them, you know, a board of trustees. Um, or if you're in a church, maybe it's your elders or your committees, whatever it may be, but there are people that are vested with that authority and privilege to receive that information. There are no secrets, but it's confidential because it's entrusted to them in their position. And then in the Christian life, Matt, I would just say it's the same thing that we all need some individuals, not everybody, not every Christian, yeah, but some Christians to have that confidential information. It's for our own good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because I mean that root base word confident, that you know that you're confident in the person who's receiving that information. Um and it I think it does bear um bear mentioning that as ministers, you know, that's a burden that we have to have whenever we're doing counseling with somebody back in an office. You know, there is a pastor uh member confidentiality that we tend to hold that we have to hold outside of um legal issues, things like that. But it's not and it's not for the sake of hiding it, it's for the sake of giving the person the room to actually work on what it is that they're doing instead of throwing them into the into a uh you know, into the crowd to be shamed and torn apart. Right. Um and that is a hard line to to be able to hold sometimes because you know, it there there are things that and as we'll talk about, a lot of this can only be solved by that person being more open and and uh engaging in the truth with with people. But I do think I I like that you brought that to that point that secrets don't trust anybody. Yeah, confidential confidential things uh tr uh place trust in places where it deserves to be placed. Exactly. And then transparency doesn't trust anybody pretty much, yeah. So at that point, transparency and uh secrecy are pretty much the same thing. And transparency leads to chaos, yeah. I'd say absolute transparency. Yeah, absolute, exactly.
SPEAKER_02And that's what I mean. When we use that transparent word, usually we don't realize what we're saying because the absolute transparency in some ways just leads to anarchy as well. Like we just miss that. But if you completely let everything out all the time, that also is not always helpful.
SPEAKER_00And anarchy is the funnest. Okay, so then if uh so as we're talking about this and secrets are soul killers, um so what how does that work then? That if and when we fall into those patterns where uh we begin to entrust most of our those uh precious places in our hearts into those secret places, how does that how does that slowly diminish your your soul? Like what what what it means it's not hurting anybody, right? Like it's just something you keeping your own personal business personal and and all that. So what why how does then secrecy become an actual soul killer?
SPEAKER_02Well, because it does the person it hurts is yourself. It hurts yourself, and when you're hurting yourself, you actually then indirectly hurt others because if you are struggling and things are not right in you, we have a tendency then to pour that out on other people around us. So you actually are negatively affecting people in an indirect way, but on the direct side, because you're hiding and you're keeping those things that are in conflict against the spirit of God who lives inside of you and is at war against whatever that fleshly sinful habit is that's going on in your life, there's this inner turmoil that's going inside of you, and you keep caving to your flesh without really finding the freedom that the spirit is calling you to, which leads to an inner angst. Um, it leads to also shame oftentimes because the devil then gets a foothold in you where he starts accusing you, and he's accusing you because you're letting him versus releasing the power that he has by bringing other people into it and letting light expose that darkness. So it hurts you, it just leads to a lot of shame, anxiety. Um, then over time it'll lead to distancing yourself oftentimes with God and the people of God because because you then see a constant reminder of your own failure in front of you when you look to God or you look to the church or to Christians. And so your shame once again is leading you to run away from the very things that you need for your soul. And this just leads to a whole downward spiral.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I like to think about it um when it comes to the idea of secret sin, kind of like the mold that grows under your sink. The longer it's left in the darkness, the more it's gonna grow. Yeah and that it won't, it won't it won't be killed until light's sp uh spent on it. Yeah. But the other part of it being that whenever you have something that's moldy in a in a hidden place, number one, it weakens the internal, the internal structure and integrity of whatever it is it's growing on. Then also it stinks. And and and and and it beg people begin, whether they know what it is or not, because of that, the unintended circumstance or unintended um, oh gosh, consequences of of what of its reality, it starts to become apparent to other people. And so I I I think if you're looking for a good um a good uh word picture of what a of what the secret scent is, it's like the mold that's under your sink.
SPEAKER_02And I think that's a good word. I like I haven't heard that illustration, but that's a good one because mold, no one wants to live in a moldy house either, you know, because it's unless they really like cheese. Exactly, exactly. But in general, none of us want to live in a moldy house because it's it's gonna make us sick. We don't feel comfortable in there. But then also I will say there's been people, I've seen it sometimes when I've gone in houses, there's houses with mold. Um, and why is it not fixed? It's because they can't pay the price oftentimes to correct it. And in the same way, when we live in a disease with that sin in us, it's that mold, that festering mold, a lot of times we live in it because we won't pay the cost. We won't pay the price to actually remediate it.
SPEAKER_00And you saw you saw directly about that during Hurricane Harvey.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, I've been a lot of moldy houses.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but mold doesn't just you don't unfortunately mold just doesn't go away. No. You always have to cut it out because basically, once it gets into any kind of construction material, drywall, whatever, the the game's over for that. Yep, in order to fix it, you have to cut it out and replace it.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I'll even keep I'll go off of that illustration because it's actually all right. Illustration and illustration. This is all good preaching material right here. Because to that same metaphor, when I would go into moldy houses after the hurricane, they needed to cut it out. They couldn't pay for it. But what did they do? They called upon the church and we went to houses. I was in houses 14 days straight after Hurricane Harvey with work crews from the church. And what were we doing? We were cutting and ripping the mold out that was killing them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But the only way that was gonna happen was by them calling upon the church and saying, I need help with this.
SPEAKER_00And opening their home.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And to that same point, the God's designed us internally that mold, that sin. The way it's gonna get ripped out is by calling upon the Lord and his church and saying, I need help. I can't cut this out on my own. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, you didn't know that when you turned on to this podcast today, we were gonna be talking about molding. We should have talked about mold last week.
SPEAKER_02This all would have preached better on Sunday, Matt. I wish I would have known these metaphors earlier.
SPEAKER_00Hey, you know, I'm always good for distraction and for mental pictures. Okay, so then getting back on then to uh some of the practices of this confessional pathway versus the keeping of secrets. Uh if confession is the pathway, how do we differentiate when we should confess just to God versus confessing to other believers? And you addressed some of this in the sermon but didn't really get into the weeds of it. Correct.
SPEAKER_02I wish I had more time.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, I mean, but also because it is so it does seem kind of variable to an extent of which ones are you laying out at the feet of God versus which ones are you laying at the feet of your brothers and sisters in Christ. So where where do you where do we begin to place that line?
SPEAKER_02Well, first of all, I'll say I do believe it it's a spiritually discerned thing. I can give I think there's a couple principles we could give here, we'll talk about conversationally, but I do think it's a spiritually discerned thing. Like I I gave the actually illustration in the second sermon because it just came to mind as I was preaching. But I said, like, if you leave here today and you stub your toe and you cuss out loud, I don't think you need to call me to confess to me immediately afterwards of what you did. Um and that was using that as just as a kind of a funny example, but just saying, like, my point was we sin all day, like we all sin all day by thought, deed, and action, um, by words, all of these things. And so then which times do we actually need to confess upon a brother? Because if it's everything, we're calling all day long. And so I'd say a couple principles to kind of apply in there of when you need to actually bring in a brother. Number one, is it a repeated or patterned behavior? Is it a habitual sin to use that term? Is it a repeated thing that you keep running back to over and over that you can't have freedom over? Um, a second question I think would just be good practical wisdom is if I don't bring in someone else, is there a high likelihood that I'll be tempted to continue in this? Um, which oftentimes, once again, with the repeated behaviors, there is high temptation because whatever it is that's plaguing you is still in your life somewhere out there in a in a accessible way of whatever that thing is.
SPEAKER_00Or really the thing that's causing it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the thing that's luring you, in other words, the thing that's luring you is probably accessible. So I think that's probably a base baseline is is this habitual? Is this something I'm doing often? And is there lingering temptation around me that will lead me to do this again? If the answer is yes to either of those, then I would say, yeah, you need to call upon a brother. Um, because most likely that means you're not gonna defeat this on your own. You need you need, as James said, to call upon the righteous brother to pray for you to help you find healing.
SPEAKER_00Well, and knowing that, and you made a statement in there a minute ago about the fact that you know we're gonna s we sin every day, and we're there's various one-offs that happen all the time. And the thing even to the extent of the things that you think about that driver, just expressing the thoughts you have about the driver in front of you on the road. Right. You know, having a having a conversation with no one in particular in your car using what what is the word from Christmas story, uh weaving a tapestry of profanity. Like I mean, it's a it's something that we that can happen. So the question then becomes, in my mind, I've heard people pray and like what's even in public prayers, you know, Lord uh forgive us for those areas where we s where we fail you. So should we, when we come to prayer, should we auto-confess? Like even for sins that we don't know that we may have committed in the course of the day? And if so, how do we keep that from becoming just a rote ritual of it's just something you do? Uh yeah what's the the Hail Mary type thing, you know? So that number number one question Should auto-confession be something that we do in our regular prayer life, whether we're aware of a glaring sin or not? And number two, if that is true, then how do we keep it vibrant and not become just another checkbox to do?
SPEAKER_02And the Lord's Prayer He tells us to ask for forgiveness, so we are confessing. So that needs to be rhythmic in our lives, that we are confessing. And I think confession daily is a healthy thing. Um now, the wide blanket prayer every single day, every day, that one's a hard one to answer of like what's the right answer. I think it is wise at times to say, God, forgive me too for the stuff I don't even know about, the things that I don't even see, the thoughts I haven't even identified.
SPEAKER_00Well, and and David kind of does it in the Psalms when he says seek in me and find any way offensive way in me.
SPEAKER_02Because he was saying in that psalm basically, reveal to me the junk I don't even know yet, is who he's he's saying, God, search me and look for the things that I know are hidden that I I don't even see myself, because that is the point, is that we are so sinful that we don't even know the ways we're sinning, oftentimes, is what the word of God says, that there's stuff under the surface that we are blind to. So I think having those moments regularly, I don't know if I have a programmatic answer of how often that prayer should come out of Lord. By the way, I'm sorry for everything I can't think of it right now, you know. But I think that is a healthy prayer to have in your life. But even going beyond just the to make sure I've covered every single sin, it's what we're talking about here of God, reveal to me the things that I'm missing right now in my life. If there's stuff something in my life that's not pleasing to you, will you reveal that to me? Because my heart wants to honor you. I want to be obedient to you. Because that softness ultimately I think is what God wants to begin with anyway. Um and and I think if our heart posture in the confession is that of God, reveal to me, and I'm sorry where I failed you, I think I think you're good. It's the heart more than in other words the formulaic words.
SPEAKER_00Well, and and so that kind of g gets another um elaboration on this. Um we you made that statement forgiveness, and when we and when we talk about in general the idea of forgiveness, you know, as as evangelical believers and uh and believing that once saved, always saved, you know, the reality is we believe that that transaction happens when we repent of our sin and take on uh and accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. And so when we're talking about the actual transaction of forgiveness, that is probably the greater way that most people will understand this of forgiveness against sin that would keep us from going to hell. Right. So if that's the case, why then do we have a repeated or habitual prayer for forgiveness to God uh of our sins? And then kind of as a corollary to that, how then if we're in this this this uh cycle of confessing our sins before God uh and asking for forgiveness, how do we keep from falling into a shame spiral where because some because some who are listening to this and probably a significant amount who are listening to this, uh will have dealt with the experience of they've done something wrong, they feel really bad about it, they confess it to God, but that because they still feel bad about it, it pushes them into other sin that is crouching at their door, and maybe even sometimes the same sin over and over again. And so I guess that two-part question then is you know, number one, why if if our sin ultimately is forgiven in Christ, why do we go back to him over and over again asking for forgiveness?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then secondly, how do we if we're doing that, how do we how do we keep it from uh from entering into a shame spiral when we're confessing to God?
SPEAKER_02Well, in the first one, the Bible tells us that that we are saved through faith in Christ, but we're also commanded to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. And so both those things are equally true, and that's why I didn't say it those exact words on Sunday, but I use the idea that I have been cleansed, but Christ is also cleansing me. But both those things can actually be both true at the same time. And so to answer the why, it's because we have been saved. So yes, we're not asking for forgiveness for salvation. Salvation's already been given to us through faith in Christ. But we are asking for forgiveness as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, saying, God, I'm not acting like a saved man today. Lord, will you forgive me? Lord, thank you that Jesus did die for me. It's coming back and it's keeping that softness and the gospel fresh to you, reminding yourself that that I am a sinner in need of God, not just on that one day, every day. I need to work out my salvation every day. I need to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel of Jesus Christ, as Paul says. And so that that ultimately is for our sanctification, was the word I was using in the sermon. Because by asking for forgiveness, you are actually saying, I am dissatisfied with these old fleshly things. God, help me become more like you with the man you want me to be. And so you are actually being sanctified through that prayer because you are drawing the line in the sand in your heart and mind saying, That's my old self. I don't want that anymore, God. And forgive me for going back to it. Lord, help me to walk in the new self that you've actually called me to. And as you keep praying that prayer regularly, God does chip away at you. Over time, those those uh strongholds become weaker in your life and you and you don't have the same pitfalls over and over and over.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and um I'm I'm thinking on a you know, I like my illustration pictures and metaphors, whatever, but I'm thinking about uh a dog that goes and rolls in the mud. Um, if you've adopted a dog, you know, you're no longer casting it out into the streets. You have said, You're going to be my dog, you're gonna live in my home, you're gonna be part of the family, whatever. Yeah. And then sometimes it's gonna rain and they're gonna go roll around in the mud outside. And so them coming in, they still need to be cleaned because what they're doing is dangerous to themselves, is dangerous to those around them, is disgusting. Yeah. And so that that in order to to write that relationship between the two, between the master and the dog, there has to be a cleansing that happens. That's done, by the way, by the master himself. And so as I see it, a lot of times we as Christians, you know, we've been adopted into the family, grafted in, but that doesn't stop us from rolling around in the mud sometimes. And, you know, God God knows we stink, he knows that we're we're we're meant for better than that. And so by confessing and being open to him in that, it restores that relationship where he can clean from us the things that are less than what he would call us to. And so a lot of times when I'm thinking about it in that method, it's like the this idea of forgiveness is I mean, is um is not that core spiritual, you're either going to hell or you're not you're going to heaven or hell. It's a man, your your life is just you're you're rolling around in the mud. Let's get let's get this fixed. Yeah, let's get this cleaned up and and then grow from this. Um but then to that second that uh second one there. Uh let's see. It was about the shame spiral, yeah.
SPEAKER_02How do you avoid it? I th I would just reiterate that the that good confession is actually very hope-filled. It's not shame filled. Because good confession is realigning yourself back to the gospel. And it's you reminding yourself, it really in many ways is you just preaching back to yourself of God, thank you that you've saved me. Thank you for for Jesus and thank you for the forgiveness you offer me. Lord, forgive me. You know, it's realigning yourself to that truth. And the gospel is always uh a positive, optimistic message. And so by confessing, you're reminding yourself of the need of the gospel, but also the hope of the gospel that God is forgiving me of this, like he is faithful to cleanse me. Because if you don't come back to that confessional moment with the Lord, once again, you start listening to lies from the father of lies, thinking, you start thinking at least at a subconscious level, um, God's ashamed of me, the church is ashamed of me, my Christian friends are ashamed of me. Oh, what would they think if they knew? And it's it's that very uh negative, um, really satanic line of thinking because it does. It comes from the father of lies. And so he will accuse you, but when you confess, you release his power over you because you're saying, I am forgiven, Lord, thank you. And it renews you with hope that you can move on.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, I just got a mental picture of uh Uncle Frank from Home Alone. Uh when you were talking about the satanic influence. Look what you did. You little jerk. Exactly. Such a millennial movement quote right there. Well, then, so let's talk about this then, because that Shame Spiral piece I think will um connect in this next question. So some people will hear this talking about, you know, that secrecy is a soul killer, confession is good for the heart and for the community. Where is the line then between honest confession in community and oversharing? And what is the appropriate venue? And just kind of to give a little bit of context to this, you know, when I was in college, this topic of confession uh in the community was a big one. And I and I I I do see this a lot with young adults where, you know, because they have come up generally in pretty uh buttoned-downed, non-confession-based practice of Christianity, they get themselves into uh evangelical uh Christianity in college that is very much about let's be honest, let's confess our sins, all that kind of stuff. You combine that with a lot of young men who are addicted to pornography. And one of the things that I saw happen a lot of times in college were some of these young men who would come into a mixed gender Bible study every week, talking about uh confessing in front of the group the various areas in which they they fell. And so what where is that line between an honest and effective confession and generally oversharing when we're coming to the idea of confession?
SPEAKER_02I think before you confess to others, you need to probably do a little bit of just soul searching within you and ask yourself what is my goal of my confession? Like what is the goal? Um, because the goal of confession ultimately is spiritual growth. You know, that's what you're looking for. It's growth-oriented. Um, but I would argue the goal of oversharing is attention-oriented. It's I'm receiving attention on this, um, which a lot of that group type confessional stuff, there is ironically, you know, idolatry in a lot of that because it is, it's an elevating of self, seeking attention and approval um within a group context to look holy or to make yourself not feel miserable about yourself anymore. Um, it's projecting things on other people so that you can leave there fe feeling great about yourself.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's all it's actually kind of a correlate uh corollary, a corollary of being a people pleaser. Yeah. That, you know, I I am saying things in the context of this group that get people to think better of me. And so instead of me actually confessing so that I can change, I'm just kind of prolonging this. I need people to affirm me. Right. Um, that's why I connected this to the shame spiral thing, because usually I think those two things go hand in hand. People find that freedom, find the good feeling of if I confess, I get this uh, what do you call it? Um endorph is it endorphin? Yeah, endorphins, yeah. Serotonin, whatever. But you get this this boost of wow, this has been a good reaction to something that I was super scared of. Well, I want to do that again, and I want to do that again, and I want to do that. And so you start having that, I'm just gonna keep pressing the button over and over again. Um and it sounds weird because generally we think, oh, well, people want to keep that kind of stuff secret, but there is a significant portion of the church population that once they start doing that, they don't stop doing it. And it's wild. Uh it it is kind of strange, I think.
SPEAKER_02Well, because I think people, to your point, they they want that attention. And if the point of your confession is to just draw essentially attention from other people, then you're missing the whole point. Yeah. Um, but and and it also would then beg the question, well, why wouldn't you do it to just one person um you know individually? And usually it would be because if we're being honest, because of that, you're not gonna get probably all the attention. Instead, you might just get one guy saying, Well, what are you gonna do to fix that? Let's talk about that, let's have a hard conversation. They might actually hold you to account. Yeah, he might actually like have that versus just a big group that will just hug you, love you, pray for you, and be sweet Christian people. But then to your point, you're just coming back to groups for the the hit to use that same drug term of the high that you get off of airing out all of your dirty laundry on everybody else to make yourself feel better.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Because the I think the other part of this is that when we talk about confession in the context of a public thing, it's not I I would say it's probably not really confession if there's not a mechanism for accountability that goes along with it. Otherwise, it just becomes um complaining about hard things or or you know doing uh self uh oh gosh, what's the word? Um self-deprecation. Um because I mean the the the goal is to get better. And I and I would agree with you that you certainly should not leap from confess from getting right and confessing with God to going and confessing in front of a group. I I think that if you're if there's not an if you don't actively aren't actively seeking out somebody to have that kind of trust and vulnerability with, I mean I I would say keep your mouth shut because you you you haven't done the the amount of work that you need to do to find somebody who can actually hold you accountable.
SPEAKER_02And the point of actually sharing with the group context should be if you're in a group, this is for the building up of the body. This is for me to say I'm saying something to edify this whole group. So in that case, if you're in confessional mode, really in many ways, it doesn't even make sense in that context in the group. Instead, what would make sense is if you were actually sharing that to encourage someone else about what God has done in your life to give you victory, because then they will be edified because somebody in that group might be dealing with something you don't even know about and they'll hear that be like, oh, there's hope for me, maybe. Um, but then it becomes once again not self-serving, it's serving others.
SPEAKER_00So then when we're talking about actual practical methods, things like that, how can we grow in the d discipline of confession and fight secrecy? What real things, what real um mechanisms can we set up in our lives to start encouraging this spiritual pathway and discouraging this um soul killer?
SPEAKER_02I think first of all, I would just set a goal of we could I we can and should, in a sense, confess all day, every day. I already said that. We sin all day, we don't know that. I also know you're listening to me and you have a life. You know, you also have like a job you're doing all day. You probably have a family, you have extracurriculars, you have things in your life. So then how do you do that in a rhythmic way? Um, I would just encourage you if you've never really built this discipline in your life, make it a goal just one day a week. Like have have a one day a week, just make an intentional period of time where I'm gonna spend some time just confessing to God. And and really, what does that even look like? It means just having an extended prayer time. Your prayer time doesn't only need to be confession, but that should be a part of a prayer time, I would say, as a goal, um, at least once in a week. If you've never uh had an active, you know, prayer cadence or rhythm to how you do it. There's a method that a lot of people do. It's an acronym, so it's easy to follow. It's ACEACTS. And so A, you start your prayer with adoration. So you're looking to God hope-filled. You know, you're you're uh declaring who he is and you're giving him glory, but then you move from that to the C, which is confession, then you're saying, Lord, forgive me for I robbed you of your glory of these specific areas. Then you go to T, which is Thanksgiving. You're giving just thanks to God for all the good things you've received in your life. You just start counting your blessings, and then you get to that S part, which is supplication, where you start asking for stuff, which we're all good at that. So um, but if you need just a recommendation, if you're listening, how do I build this? That would be a simple, easy rhythm is go follow that acts model and then at least once a week, just build some time. Build some time and and make that time of confession meaningful.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I would argue that meditation really is the meditation upon scripture really is the gateway to understanding on this because if it's just a general I feel bad about something, that doesn't, I mean that kind of flexes around. Some of us can feel bad about stuff all the day, right? Right. But if we're meditating upon scripture and then we are asking the Lord to uh reveal if there's any offensive way in me, then you know, that's part that's part of really understanding and wrapping our minds around uh around the truth of that scripture. Um I think one other question that I would have that would be a again an extension of that, um, is we we talk a lot about the idea of having an accountability partner, somebody that you you entrust this stuff to and who will pray for you, stuff like that. I I think a significant amount of our listeners would say, Where are those people? Yeah, it's a great question. How do I I mean even in the context of a church, you know, I go if I go to a Bible study that's 15 other people, yeah, uh, but I I mean say say that you're shy, right? Or that you've never done this before and you don't want to be a weirdo coming up to somebody and saying, Hey, can I confess my sin to you? Like I mean, that's there's a real pre social pressure that we feel about that. So how can a person uh develop that kind of uh of relationship uh even within the local church?
SPEAKER_02Well, first of all, it starts with prayer. If that's something you need in your life, start asking for God to give that to you now. Um and I do believe God will answer that prayer in due time. So it begins with prayer because as you pray, you are petitioning to God to give something that will be good and right for you. But also as you pray, that will then change your heart and mind to make you more acute to the opportunities around you, the people that God presents. It's it's amazing how when we pray for things actively, we start looking around and we actually see God is moving and there's actually some opportunities there. So start praying, then open your eyes. And and what you need to be looking for is someone, ideally, um, you know, you already know that's in a context. You used it, for instance, you're in a group of 15 people. If I was in a group of 15 people, then I'd be looking around. Well, who in there might actually be somebody that that has some some level of spiritual maturity is what you're looking for? Somebody that's walking with the Lord, um, that you've seen some fruit in their life, and ask for God to reveal that. And you're looking in those circles that you're around. Um, and then you have to have the vulnerable conversation. There's really no avoiding it. Like if you're looking for them to ask you to confess your sin to them, that's not going to happen. Um, so at some point after you've prayed, you've looked, find somebody of the same gender. I will encourage you with that too, also as a piece of wisdom. Find somebody of the same gender. They don't have to be of the same age, they could be ahead of you or more of a peer. It doesn't necessarily matter on the age. The key is the spiritual side of there's somebody that has some fruit. And then just go up to him frankly and ask. I will tell you testimonially. I remember when I got serious about the Lord at age 17. I remember because I was part of that same era, Matt, where you're hearing all these lessons and I know I need to do it, and I know I'm jacked up. And I remember I went to a guy that was in youth group and he was like, he was kind of overwhelmed. He's like, I'm not the right guy. And then later on, like as I moved on from him, I was like, Oh yeah, he was a bad guy. What was I thinking? This is this was a terrible idea. But but so you might get shot down. I'm kind of giving you a warning. Yeah, and don't be discouraged. Um, I will also give this word of rec recommendation. It doesn't always have to be one-on-one. Yeah, it can also be a group of three or four. Like if you find a small group where you say, hey guys, I'd like us to get together where it's not just about confessional. I just want us to get together once a month, whatever your goal is.
SPEAKER_01And share life.
SPEAKER_02And share life. Yeah, have a meal, talk about life, but I'd like us to have some intentional time where we're talking about going around the circle of sharing struggles in our life, pray for one another. Would you like to be a part of that? And and I think you'll be shocked how many people in church that are around you that actually would be open to that if you just if you presented it that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I think there are two more things that I think come out of this that are are important for us to address. The the first one, you made the statement, and we've talked about this a couple times, about the problem of mixed gender confession. So let's let's take a word for that. Why is it a bad idea to practice that kind of confession with someone of the opposite gender? There's multiple facets to that.
SPEAKER_02I'll speak as a man, to men in particular. Um, a lot of what men will be confessing is sexual sin. I'm just gonna say it bluntly. Not to say that women won't won't confess it either, but but men in particular we're visual creatures. We struggle with lust. That is just a a uh fleshly issue for virtually every man on planet earth. Um it becomes problematic for you to talk about your lust issue, pornography issue. It becomes uncomfortable for the person of the opposite sex to be the one listening to that from you. So some of it's just the awkwardness and honoring our sisters and not not putting them in that uncomfortable position. I will say conversely, on the other side, for ladies that that need to confess issues, there's struggles that women have that men are completely clueless on. Like they have no idea what you're going through emotionally. They don't understand the shoes you walk in, the some of the anxieties and the comparisons and the issues that you walk with day by day. We're just not wired the same way. So it's hard for us to emotionally connect and be helpful to you. Um, so God did, I believe, make us, we've talked about this at length. I believe He made us equal but different. So there's wisdom in that. I'll go beyond that to the second step of even beyond the gender differences. There's practical wisdom, particularly in not knitting your heart with someone intimately of the opposite sex that is not your spouse.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um now, if you're married and you have some stuff you need to confess to your spouse, that's a whole nother conversation. And you probably do need to, especially if you sinned against them in particular. But that's a whole nother conversation. But as far as you um confessing just junk and doing life in that sense regularly, um, somebody, a s a friend, a brother in the Lord, sister in the Lord, it's a bad idea because you will intimately, ultimately, emotionally tie your hearts together in a way that God doesn't want that oneness between you and someone else other than your spouse.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and psychology has a uh uh vocabulary for this term called uh for this called transference, where uh because somebody is putting themselves out there in vulnerability, they can tend to uh conflate uh feelings of uh passion or of romance that are just based on the fact that they were being vulnerable with that person and they feel like they're being accepted. And it's it's a it's a very common thing in the psychological world uh and psychiatric world that they've got to be you've got to be very careful when interacting with a with a therapist. And if we're just being honest, there have been a lot of Christians who have stumbled because they started doing that where they were sharing uh confessing sin to people of the opposite gender, and then they started transferring that romantic feeling over to that person, and then they just they're justified, they've they justify themselves in it saying, Well, they just they know me better than anybody, they care more about me than these people that I'm that I'm uh like that I'm married to or whatever else. And so it is a very real, very documented thing that it's just it's not a good idea to be vulnerable with somebody that you're gonna that you could possibly be romantically attracted to and um and just gotta be aware of that.
SPEAKER_02And being sensitive to the the fact that it might not even be you, it might be them. Right. Because there's also some of that like, oh well no, she's my sister, he's my brother. It's like, well, how do you know they're gonna feel the same way? Right. Um, because that also makes things awkward oftentimes as we project our own sense of security on someone else. That other person, you don't know where they're at. They might be at a very insecure, weak spot where you are now putting them in a difficult position where uh you're opening them up to being wounded through that process um because they aren't, you know, at a position where they're in a stable place that you think you are in, which you probably aren't in anyway. Like you probably you probably aren't as invincible as you think.
SPEAKER_00It would seem unlikely. Yeah, and so I mean, I think that's a really good thing. And an another word here that I think will be of curiosity to listeners is so if I have a pastor or a minister that cares about me a lot, that shows interest in my life, should I be practicing this level of confession with that minister or that pastor? Um what what are your thoughts on just in general ministers serving as that kind of confessional accountability?
SPEAKER_02I think ministers and some ministers will disagree with me on this, but I think especially if you're in a larger church context, I think ministers and pastors, we do triage. That's what we do. Um and so if I think it actually is good and righteous for a church member to call up their pastor or minister to say if they really have something hard on their life, like sinful that they need to get off their chest, that's a great conversation, honestly, to share with your pastor or minister. There's nothing wrong with that. If somebody had an issue in our church and they wanted to come out of my office, I think that's a good thing if if that God laid that on their heart. But what I'll do is I'll listen to them, I'll I'll remind them of the gospel, the hope of it. I'll encourage them, pray for them. But then I'm gonna try to get them somewhere else because um it is it is a better uh that God has given us a large body in the church ultimately to minister to one another. You cannot put all of it on your one pastor to be your primary discipler. Um, and so what the pastor oftentimes can do though is basically what we're doing in this podcast of giving you some practical wisdom of, hey, let me help you, you know, find the right person and pray with you to help walk you through that, whether that be accountability, perhaps even counseling needs, depending on the need that's going on in their life. Um, but that would be my word of recommendation is don't put that burden on your pastor because it's just it's gonna crush them over time. They can't do that for every single person, even though they love you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because they're they are accountable to the entirety of the flock. Yeah. And um, you know, generally the best way to think about it is um that when we do a referral as a uh as a minister or a pastor, don't hear it as us just trying to pass off the problem to somebody else. It's equipping the saints for the work of ministry and us recognizing that there are those out there that really are skilled with dip counseling and therapy in very difficult situations. And uh hope that if you're in that that place where you are wanting to confess something to a to a pastor to try to get better on something, that if they pass, if they pass you on, refer you on to somebody else, it's not because they just don't want to deal with it. It's because you know they they're accountable to another 1,500, 2,000 souls. And uh and the reality is my we we we participate with Jesus in seeking out the nine the one out of the 99, but we're also responsible for those 99 still. So it it is one of those things I think there's a practical side to it. There's but there's you made the the statement also of the spiritual side of it that your pastor can't be the be-all end all of pastoral care to every person in the church. It's something that has to be shared by the church family and by other other people that are equipped to to handle that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_02And I'll give a little bit of insider information for the listeners that don't know pastors. I'll just go and let you know as a pastor, your pastor, believe it or not, might not be the best person for you to talk to. Like that's that's the part too that we always look to pastors thinking they're the best at every spiritual thing on earth. The reality is, every pastor, myself included, we are strong in certain areas. We have some areas that God has gifted us uniquely in that we are very strong in, but we're also human, and there's other areas that maybe we're we're mid in, you know, we're okay and we're not great in. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I I'm pretty perfect.
SPEAKER_02Like I can tell you, there's certain things like in the in within shepherding and pastoring and leading that I know I'm not the best at. Um doesn't mean I don't try, but I also know that there are better people than me at this, and that's okay. And actually, good leadership is to say, hey, I think somebody can help you with this that's better than me. And and I'd love to help you make that connection. And that's not an unkind thing. That's actually the most kind thing you can do is say this person's better at it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think we've done a pretty good or pretty comprehensive view of this, but I know there's always more conversations, what-ifs, things like that. And I would encourage you, continue to go look into the scriptures where you see examples of confession, where you see people offering counsel and advice that's effective. Uh, and frankly, look having a look at your own life and considering, hey, what secrets am I trying to keep, but I feel myself keeping from other people that God would wants to be brought out into the light so that I can be sanctified, so I can be cleaned and be put in right relationship with him and with others. And so, John, then as we uh set to close out here, is there anything, any any other thoughts that come to mind, spring to mind, encouragements there?
SPEAKER_02I don't have any new thoughts. I just encourage you, take your first step, uh confess to the Lord, start there. We are priesthood of believers, you have access. But then also if it is serious, like we talked about, if it's something reoccurring, if it's something with ongoing temptation, find somebody, even if you do start with a pastor or minister, and confess before others, and I do believe that you'll find healing in that process.
SPEAKER_00Well, friends, thank you for taking the time to join us here on the Citizen ATX podcast. And we would encourage you that as we finish out this spiritual pathway series, which I think has two more weeks, is that right? Uh, just one more, actually. Okay. So we we hope that you will uh tune in or attend here at AB at Austin Baptist Church, uh, and and also take the time to look back at the previous episodes in the Soul Killer series to see, hey, how can I continue to build up my life and my faith so that I can grow closer to Christ in relationship and in maturity? So, um on behalf of Jonathan, glad that you're joining us today, and we look forward to seeing you next time on the Citizen ATX Podcast.